Take PC XL into account when generating monsters


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 08:13

Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

See subj, I suggest to compare monster HD and PC XL when generating new monsters.
It is hilarious but boring when you clear Orc, then reach XL 21 in other branches and when you are traveling to Elf, you find a pack of gnolls trying to stop you on Orc 2.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 08:26

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

HD is not indicative of monster strenght, though. All these propositions (and i remember multiple) need a new metric for every monster.

Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 08:52

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

You definitely don't want any sort of player XL-based maximum level for monsters: it's spoilerish, prone to breakpoints, and could encourage really weird tactics.

However, there is definitely something to be said for culling popcorn. I'd suggest rather than using HD directly, go with a metric like "don't generate monsters worth less than 1/2000 of the XP required for a human to reach the next XL." That's just an initial stab at a number, but it would cut off gnolls around XL16, which strikes me as a good point where gnolls are no longer threatening. Vault monsters could be exempt, and perhaps there could be a flag for other monsters to still generate if so desired. Bands could generate or not based on their most threatening members (e.g. you'd still get popcorn orcs, but only in the presence of priests/warriors etc, where they are marginally more interesting).

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 09:13

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

Pop-corn in general is a problem, although I see it in a slightly different way: that you can happily wade among gnolls after having been scared of them is OK to me, what I don't like is that some monsters are never scary, because they never appear early enough to be a danger. These maybe should not even be in the game, or only appear as summons.

I think that more enhancers for enemies or debuffers against the players would make pop corn more interesting, if it always appeared near other, stronger monsters. This is why I think barbs are pretty good. A pack of gnolls with antimagic would represent a problem, if they managed to get close. A monster with the ability to mass polymorph its allies without the HD limit (e.g. turn them into a dragon) would make even gnolls a problem, if you don't kill them fast enough.

Such changes however must be pretty complicated to implement. The 1/2000 to xp level rule sounds good to me, until something more tactically interesting becomes available. It would make the game less tabby and possibly shorter.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 11:20

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

Shtopit wrote:It would make the game less tabby and possibly shorter.

That depends. Would it mean that stronger monsters are spawned instead of gnolls? Or would it mean that no monsters are spawned instead?
If stronger monsters are spawned, it could lead to experience-balance problems, because there would suddenly be a lot more experience in the game to be collected.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 11:22

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

Any monster culling mechanic needs to deal with Boggarts (HD4) properly.

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 11:24

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

The gnolls are a symptom of two things: Backtracking and post-generation spawning. It's perfectly possible to solve these problems.
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bel

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 13:29

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

As mentioned above, the issue is really that you are in Orc:2 (as part of travelling somewhere else). This is just a case of seeing popcorn while auto-traveling. I don't think it's much of a deal myself (holding Tab down works).

However, if it is to be fixed, the way to do it would be to not generate stronger monsters, but generate no monsters (if they are deemed to be unthreatening using some measure). This is because you only encountered them because you were auto-traveling through a low-level area.

Of course, one could try to attack the issue of backtracking itself, but it would be more difficult and/or would require deeper changes.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 22:09

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

When auto-traveling, all these low-level spawns provide welcome snacks for the traveller - popcorn! I'd hate to see that go,
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th July 2017, 07:52

Re: Take PC XL into account when generating monsters

Majang wrote:When auto-traveling, all these low-level spawns provide welcome snacks for the traveller - popcorn! I'd hate to see that go,


I am not sure it is worth saving the tedium just for that. For instance my last caster finished a 3 rune game with 44 bread/meat rations and 39 fruits. That's quite a lot of gnolls :)
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