Heavy Armour Caster Species? (Brainstorm)

[Abominae]

This isn't a species proposal, but rather just tossing out another possibly bad idea for the Game Design forum to chew up. I've often pondered a heavy armour caster, but the only species even closely specialized to that is the Deep Dwarf or Hill Orc. There are many average aptitude species that can eventually pull off heavy armour casting, but there currently isn't a species that has aptitudes heavily supporting that playstyle.

My initial thought would be to pair this species with high conjurations but low elemental magic aptitudes. There are few species that have above average conjurations and only Tengu have exceptional, but many different species specialize in an elemental magic. Exceptionally high Conjurations and exceptionally high armour is only partially replicated by a Tengu, who has less reason to go Heavy Armour than most neutral species (I attribute this to the % EV increase provided by flying). I would imagine high Str, moderate to above average Int and very low dex for this species would be warranted; I'd like to see an elementalist be able to wear plate with minimal investment in the Str stat. Hill Orc caster backgrounds still need a significant investment into Str to be able to snuggle into Plate Mail and I can't honestly say it's a worthy investment.

Of course, this playstyle and aptitude spread probably needs to be supported by some defining gimmick and I would love to hear some ideas for them.

But basically, I'd like to hear input as to whether an armoured caster would be a niche players would like to see filled and if so, what type of ideas do you have for that type of species? As far as aptitudes go, high Conjurations, high Armour and average Spellcasting is a niche that has yet to be filled and one I would eventually like to see filled.

[Psieye]

This is what Chei is for. He gives you the high Str, high Int required to get this playstyle going. The rest is then aptitudes and maybe some Wiz rings.

[crate]

Heavy armour characters of chei are not very good until very late in the game.... You can do it, but I don't think your character is actually better.

Between HO, DD, Te, and Dg (dg and maybe te are like chei though in that you probably do better with lighter armour) this niche is really already filled. Or Ce is ok too. You won't be wearing plate early on because there just isnt enough xp early on to be able to cast spells in plate regardless of your armour aptitude, but depending on what you find you might be able to switch to splint or so after lair.

With the elementalists probably you're better off not using plate armour (maybe orcish plate on a hill orc) but there are a lot of races where for FE/EE/AE I'd wear fire/ice dragon armours (and consider good plate or maybe even storm dragon armour). Plate necromancer makes sense for some races, and maybe plate summoner.

[tasonir]

The reason I haven't been doing as much heavy armor casting lately is once you have the casting ability I generally just take statue form, which gives you all the perks of heavy armor without actually wearing the armor. Granted you can't get fire/cold resist, but statue gives you 3 resists, so you are probably fine there. No spellcasting penalty. Same as with the chei advice, this is only for late game use...really heavy armor spellcasters (statue or actual armor) are very powerful eventually, there is just no smooth path to get there from the start. I splat a lot early on, until I finally get one through to the point the character is average power, then play carefully until I start to gain above average powers

Maybe one day I'll make a second account for high win rate games only, but I currently do all my crazy experiments on one account....mwahahaha.

[BlackSheep]

No spellcasting penalty.

Unless you count an added 50% delay a spellcasting penalty.

[tasonir]

It isn't, because it doesn't lower your success rate for spellcasting. That's what spellcasting penalty means. I know people hate slow, but if you removed it statue form would be overpowered. Mixing up terms like spellcasting penalty which has a specific meaning doesn't help anyone. I'm fairly sure people know statue form is slowed.

[BlackSheep]

I'm guessing most people who need advice about Statue Form would like to know that every action they take is slowed by 50% in addition to the extra AC, damage and resistances it offers.

[ebarrett]

Melding away most of your equipment isn't a perk of heavy armour either.

[tasonir]

statue form, which gives you all the perks of heavy armor without actually wearing the armor.

Reading comprehension isn't ebarrett's strong suit.

I'm guessing most people who need advice about Statue Form would like to know that every action they take is slowed by 50% in addition to the extra AC, damage and resistances it offers.

Yes, new players need advice. New players also need to learn game mechanics, and by calling slow a spellcasting penalty when it isn't, you confuse two separate mechanics and make it harder for them to understand the complex systems that crawl has. Casting spells slower is bad. But it is NOT a spellcasting penalty, and you're more likely to mislead new players, than people who have already won and realize what you are getting at.

[BlackSheep]

I'm more comfortable with players learning on their own that Blade Hands increases spell failure (and why this is usually irrelevant) than I am with them learning that Statue Form makes you slower (and why that's a big deal).

Seriously, you sang the praises of the spell without once mentioning its serious drawback.

[ebarrett]

statue form, which gives you all the perks of heavy armor without actually wearing the armor.

Reading comprehension isn't ebarrett's strong suit.

Body armour, gloves and boots meld. It might end up being rather substantial. Admitting that your pet builds might not be the be-all, end-all of Crawl (hey, it rhymes like some top 40 eldritch summoning ritual hit!) isn't your strong suit.

[crate]

Statue form is seriously not good unless you're hitting stuff with melee attacks. Using it just for the defenses as you cast spells is likely to make you more likely to die, not less.

[tasonir]

Then mention the drawback, and don't mislabel it as another drawback that it doesn't have. I didn't mention a lot of things about statue form, the point was just that it provides GDR and AC. I didn't even mention GDR by name, just shorthanded it to "All the perks of heavy armor". I don't think it should be expected that two sentences about one of the more complex forms in crawl would list all of its effects.

And yes I'm aware it melds boots and gloves. I'm sorry I didn't mention every detail. From now one whenever I say statue form I will link it to the bots so that everyone knows all of the details about statue form and that it should never be cast.

[ebarrett]

You barged into a thread that had little or nothing to do with statue form to sing the praises of your pet spell, and then you did an extremely terrible job of defending it. And now apparently you're trying to imply we should feel bad about being factually accurate as you scramble to save face while still pretending you didn't mess up and that everyone is just "haters"? You're a funny guy.

Can some mod split this discussion into oblivion so hopefully the thread gets back on track?

[Davion Fuxa]

The real problem I see with trying to create a 'Heavy Armour Caster' design is that it is a question of how you would balance it so that it isn't overpowered, horrifically pigeon-holed, or pretty much mirror another species playstyle (I'm thinking it might look like a High Elf moreso then the creatures mentioned here). You would also have to balance it out with all the other skills and such if you were able to do the above.

I would imagine that if such a design was to come into play, it would likely look like a Deep Elf merged with a Hill Orc - maybe being an Elf or Orc itself. I would note that it shouldn't be an Elf since it doesn't thematically fit while being too closely related to the other three. Orc might be possible but you have to take into account 'Beogh worship' where they would possible be horrifically overpowered. Dwarves should probably also get mention, as it might work well to design a Dwarf like this. Of course it doesn't need to be a Dwarf, and Elf, or an Orc.

As for gimmicks, I would mostly only add them in for flavor or to help make the playstyle different. If the gimmicks are too noticeable you get species that play around their gimmicks rather then specific playstyles.

[Kalma]

I'm guessing most people who need advice about Statue Form would like to know that every action they take is slowed by 50% in addition to the extra AC, damage and resistances it offers.

Every action takes 50% longer which means slowed by 33%.

[XuaXua]

There's that one thread I read recently where apparently Fire Dragon Armour is the armour to use.