Staves Should Allow Training of their Element's Skill

[Shtopit]

If you have a higher fire magic level, the damage inflicted by a staff of fire becomes higher. However, if you find a staff of fire and no book, you can't train fire magic.

This is bad and should be changed. Not only because it isn't how the game normally works (the game allows you to train evo if you have a staff of fire, but not fire magic?), but also because it would make finding such a staff much more meaningful. It would mean that you can start training fire magic before finding a spellbook with fire spells, which could appear very late in the dungeon and contain only high level spells that you won't be able to use for a while anyway, if your skill is 0. However, the staff would allow you to increase and make use of the skill while you wait to find a book.

Something similar can be said of weapons of pain. Pain is powerful, but requires an investment, and I see no reason to deny the chance to make the investment.

[Sprucery]

I agree. Of course, you should generally never train the elemental skill just for the staff if you don't have spells to go with it. But maybe there is a spellbook in a shop or you just lack a spell level etc.

[ZipZipskins]

In general I feel like these changes would encourage people to make bad decisions about their characters' skills. Choosing to spend experience on fire magic for spells you might find later instead of things that make you stronger now because you found a staff of fire is a resoundingly poor choice.

[Shard1697]

The game does not need to prevent people from making bad choices.

[Sprucery]

Choosing to spend experience on fire magic for spells you might find later instead of things that make you stronger now because you found a staff of fire is a resoundingly poor choice.

What if you know you are going to learn some fire spells soon?

The game does not need to prevent people from making bad choices.

...especially when the choice can in some situations be a reasonable one.

For comparison: you can train stealth while wearing a CPA, you can train M&F when all you have is a -3 club and a +9 double sword etc.

[johlstei]

The game does not need to prevent people from making bad choices.

It should decide whether or not it's going to try and do this, and stick to it. Either allow training anything at any time(still gated by hitting *), or mechanically prevent you from making bad choices, as it does now. I don't think the middle ground as proposed by the OP makes much sense. I'm not invested in which outcome is chosen, it's a little weird right now but ultimately fine. Right now it very much is trying to stop you from making bad choices and I imagine that benefits new players, if only a little.

Sprucery, the fact that the game can't really reasonably detect all bad choices and prevent them doesn't mean that it shouldn't try at all. A reasonable case could be made for allowing training anything at any time, but that's not it. "Prevent training stealth in CPA" and "Allow training anything at any time" would be better changes than the one in the OP because they at least entrench a decision instead of a fence-sitting middle ground.

[Shtopit]

The game does not need to prevent people from making bad choices.

It should decide whether or not it's going to try and do this, and stick to it. Either allow training anything at any time(still gated by hitting *), or mechanically prevent you from making bad choices, as it does now. I don't think the middle ground as proposed by the OP makes much sense. I'm not invested in which outcome is chosen, it's a little weird right now but ultimately fine. Right now it very much is trying to stop you from making bad choices and I imagine that benefits new players, if only a little.

Sprucery, the fact that the game can't really reasonably detect all bad choices and prevent them doesn't mean that it shouldn't try at all. A reasonable case could be made for allowing training anything at any time, but that's not it. "Prevent training stealth in CPA" and "Allow training anything at any time" would be better changes than the one in the OP because they at least entrench a decision instead of a fence-sitting middle ground.

I think you are missing out on my point:
if you have a 4 skill spell, you are allowed to train all 4 skills that are needed for or simply facilitate casting the spell.
If you have a 4 or 3 skill weapon (fighting, evo, staves, elemental for magic staves; fighting, necro, weapon for pain), you are not allowed to train all skills needed to use it efficiently.

I see this as an inconsistency in the current system and am proposing to correct it within the current system. I am not proposing a middle ground.

[Rast]

Staves should be offhand items (shield slot) that aren't part of melee combat at all.

[Chicken]

I think this change should be made because it's expected. Whenever you find something that has an effect that theoretically you can train with, you get a chance to train the skill. This is usually taken to a ridiculous degree. Even if your one hand is locked in a *Drain weapon and the other is locked in a *Contam shield, you still get to train that crossbow skill!

The more relevant case though is weapons of pain. You have nothing but ineptitude unless and until you find a random necromancy spell, no matter whether it's raising skeletons or regenerating damage. That seems just as surprising because you're holding the tool right now.

As for "encouraging" bad strategy ... so what? You can practice evoking your staff of energy even if you don't know any spells. That's up to the player to decide. No fail, no fun.

[tasonir]

Alternative: Keep all skill training as it is currently, requiring you to have a spell for spell schools, carry a shield for shields, etc.

For experienced players who don't want to be protected from themselves, add an rc file option: Allow free training, defaults to no. When set to yes, you can simply train any skill regardless of what you are carrying/have memorized.

[Shard1697]

Isn't the difference between training for newbies/training for experienced players already done via automatic vs. manual skill training though?