xl apt is bad


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 3rd May 2017, 22:26

xl apt is bad

Some species gaining XLs faster than others might sound interesting but let's look at what it really does.

The main beneficial effects of XL are:
- you get more max HP
- you get more max MP
- you get more spell slots
- you get more stats
- for some species, you get new/better mutations

There are already other aptitudes and mutations specifically for modifying max HP and MP, and another aptitude for modifying spell slots (Spellcasting aptitude). So these benefits of a high XL aptitude are unique; the main difference between XL apt and a slight modifier to these other apts is that the XL apt eventually becomes meaningless since almost every character wins at XL27. That's not really an interesting piece of differentiation.
The species-dependent effects of XL - stat gain and mutation gain - are already species-dependent. So XL aptitude doesn't introduce any additional contrast; there's not a demonspawn with a +1 XL apt to complement the demonspawn with -1 XL apt, nor should there be.

What really makes this aptitude an aggressively bad feature, in my opinion, is the main drawback of XL: with most gods, you gain less piety the higher your XL is (especially noticeable with okawaru), so xp apt acts as a modifier on your piety gain; Ds ends up with more piety than Hu, when an unspoiled player would expect the two species to get the same amount. This makes piety gain more difficult both to perceive and to balance, compared to every species having the same XL gain rate.

I suggest removing exp aptitude and making all species level up at the same rate as a -1 exp apt species would. Op, Te, Gr, Na, Hu, Ko, Ha, and Fo can get an HP/MP bump if they end up too weak after this, and Dg can have its HP modifier reduced to 0. While the species balance implications of this are significant, I think they're beneficial: every species would reach a given XL at approximately the same time, rather than having 4 different rates, so "what XL is a typical character when they reach Lair" becomes a much easier and more useful question to answer.
Furthermore, the effect on overall difficulty is very small. The best species (Tr, Sp, Ce, DD), plus Mi, all have -1 XL aptitudes already. Those games would be completely unaffected. On the other side of the power scale, DE and Mu are unaffected, though Na gets a little worse. The species that use XL extensively as part of their main gimmick are either only somewhat nerfed (Gr, Na) or completely unaffected (Ds, Dr). I believe the gain in clarity and simplicity is well worth the work.

(I'm aware XL has a bunch of other minor effects, like changing god wrath, Xom action breakpoints, affecting accuracy and AC in some forms, amount of skill xp you get from potions of experience, trap detection chance, etc. but I don't think those are important enough to matter here.)

Concrete aptitude changes I would suggest:
Spoiler: show
Remove exp apt, make the baseline XL cost the same as it is for -1 exp apt species

Fo: fighting 1 -> 2, spellcasting 0 -> 1
Hu: fighting 0 -> 1, spellcasting -1 -> 1
Ha: fighting -1 -> 0, spellcasting -3 -> -2
Ko: fighting 1 -> 2, spellcasting 0 -> 1

Ba: spellcasting 0 -> 1
Gh: spellcasting -2 -> -1
Gr: spellcasting -1 -> 0
HO: spellcasting -3 -> -2
Mf: spellcasting -1 -> 0
Na: spellcasting -1 -> 1, hp 2 -> 3 (This species is unusually damaged by slower XL gain since they need to get XLs for their AC to stop being terrible)
Og: spellcasting 1 -> 2
Op: spellcasting -1 -> 0
Te: spellcasting -1 -> 0
Vs: spellcasting 0 -> +1

Tr: hp 3 -> 2 (so we don't have three species with 3 hp modifier)

Dg: hp 1 -> 0

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 12
amaril, Bart, bel, Cryptic, nagdon, PowerOfKaishin, quik, Sprucery, VeryAngryFelid, yesno and 2 more users

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 4th May 2017, 06:44

Re: xl apt is bad

If we did want to make it actually relevant in the long run, the XL apt could also effect the *maximum* experience level you could get to. I'm not confident that's better than just removing it, but it's an alternative option, I suppose.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
duvessa
User avatar

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 40

Joined: Friday, 11th November 2016, 02:35

Post Friday, 5th May 2017, 23:22

Re: xl apt is bad

Level cap for each race would make balance hard to see. This race X gets stats quick but maxes out with 3 less levels compared to the other race Y.

Xp affinity means a trade off of early or later advantages but also means some species are terrible for extended. While others are boring early.

Since races doesn't have to be perfectly balanced against each other XP affinity is just a pasaive hassle rather than a good factor to influence race choice.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 5th May 2017, 23:52

Re: xl apt is bad

I've sent an email about this proposal to the c-r-d mailing list. No idea what'll come of it, but I think the suggestion is solid.

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 113 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.