Snake monster set is extremely counterintuitive

[duvessa]

So mikee posted about this before but not in GDD and I think it's worth paying attention to.

The Snake monster list is small:

  Code:

static const pop_entry pop_snake[] =
{ // Snake Pit
  { -4,  4,  750, SEMI, MONS_NAGA },
  {  0,  4,  215, SEMI, MONS_SALAMANDER },
  {  0,  6,  315, SEMI, MONS_ANACONDA },
  {  0,  8, 1125, SEMI, MONS_BLACK_MAMBA },
  {  0,  8,  340, SEMI, MONS_NAGA_WARRIOR },
  {  0,  8,  550, SEMI, MONS_NAGA_MAGE },
  {  0,  8,  225, SEMI, MONS_NAGA_RITUALIST },
  {  0,  8,  315, SEMI, MONS_NAGA_SHARPSHOOTER },
  {  0,  8,  415, PEAK, MONS_SHOCK_SERPENT },
  {  1,  4,  200, FLAT, MONS_MANA_VIPER },
  {  1,  7,  225, PEAK, MONS_GUARDIAN_SERPENT },
  {  2,  5,  110, PEAK, MONS_SALAMANDER_MYSTIC },
  {  2,  8,  245, SEMI, MONS_NAGARAJA },
  { 0,0,0,FLAT,MONS_0 }
};

Nagaraja are sold as the biggest, scariest Snake monster. But compare them to the three top killers:

  Code:

nagaraja (N) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 15 | HP: 68-95 | AC/EV: 8/9 | Dam: 27, 7(constrict) | weapons, items, doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(140), poison | Chunks: noxious | XP: 1895 | Sp: spit poison (d22) [!AM, !sil, breath], b.venom (3d19), mystic blast (3d19), poison arrow (3d22), teleport other, haste | Sz: Large | Int: human.

  Code:

shock serpent (S) | Spd: 15 | HD: 10 | HP: 42-65 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Dam: 20(elec:10-14) | cold-blooded | Res: magic(40), elec+++ | XP: 827 | Sp: b.electrical (3d13) [!AM, !sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

  Code:

naga sharpshooter (N) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 9 | HP: 61-84 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 17, 5(constrict) | weapons, items, doors, master archer, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(80), poison | Chunks: noxious | XP: 834 | Sp: spit poison (d14) [!AM, !sil, breath], portal projectile | Sz: Large | Int: human.

  Code:

naga warrior (N) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 10 | HP: 76-113 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Dam: 28, 6(constrict) | weapons, items, doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: magic(80), poison | Chunks: noxious | XP: 977 | Sp: spit poison (d16) [!AM, !sil, breath] | Sz: Large | Int: human.

I'll start with shock serpent since I think it is the most dangerous monster that can generate in the branch. Compared to nagaraja, shock serpents have similar damage output and are way faster on top of that (it is rare for a nagaraja to haste on the same turn it enters LOS). Furthermore you take a massive amount of damage if you actually try to kill them at close range, you have to be pretty diesel to stand any chance of meleeing them. A shock serpent is scarier than a nagaraja for virtually every character, and they make rElec and hexes the two most useful things to have in Snake.
Naga sharpshooters have very similar defenses to nagaraja, but with far greater damage output because they can attack from anywhere in LOS (none of the nagaraja spells even have LOS range let alone smite targeting) and they also get to practically ignore resistances, EV, and SH. And they spawn in packs!
Naga warriors are certainly not dangerous, from an objective point of view, but if you actually try to kill them in melee you will almost certainly take way more damage than you would by trying to kill a nagaraja in melee, because it takes several times longer to kill a naga warrior with a shield.
So the big, scary branch poison branch end monster is beaten by at least two of the common monsters in the branch, neither of which even does significant poison damage. This leads to nagaraja feeling pretty much the same as naga magi.

This is a power creep-induced problem; greater nagas and anacondas were legitimately the most dangerous Snake monsters back in the day, and while they still had a lot of redundancy with guardian nagas and naga magi, people noticed the difference. The addition of shock serpents and naga sharpshooters, along with the naga warrior buff, is the main thing causing them to fall off. Even earlier, they did suffer from the 0.8 haste nerf, but were still the branch's biggest monster. That said, you could fix it with a nagaraja buff or a branch rearrangement (make sharpshooters the end vault monster and nagarajas the common one) just as well as you could fix it by nerfing sharpshooters/shock serpents.

[bcadren]

I don't tend to agree with Minmay much, but objectively, depending on character it's generally Shock Serpents (mostly because of their "death curse" effect), anacondas (fast constriction) and/or sharp shooters I'm most worried about. I've even previously said that snake is more like Shoals than it is like spider, since spider you're afraid of melee poison mostly while in snake/shoals the deadliest thing is physical ranged.

[GravitySqueeze]

I remember when I first started playing Snake was pretty much a joke. Only Lair branch I never died in on my way to my first win. Now it's a joke except when you find Shock Serpents or Vashnia. Every dangerous situation I've had in that branch has been Shock Serpents, Uniques, or stuff coming at me while I rest on a cleared floor.. It's been like that basically since Shock Serpents were added to make the branch less toothless. The threat level something that I can immediately walk away from at any time can provide is pretty limited. Even without rPois you can just immediately disengage without consequence against Nagas. Nagas as enemies just don't have anything to make them threatening right now. Unless a Guardian Serpent dumps them on you in a heap they aren't doing shit.

The monster lists in Swamp/Spider/Shoals provide way more variation in threat.

[NhorianScum]

Nods at doesnt's 4 arm nagaraja patch.

Snake feels good mechanicly though the flavor could use some TLC. Having a spike damage branch is cool mechanicly if somewhat bullshit for new players (shoutouts to every dude who's instantly died to max arbalest rolls off a gaurd serp).

Agreed that the spike/dps pairing of shoals snake makes more sense.

Spider is still less intuitive imo as the "mr ignoring confuse -40 corrode" branch.

Shock serpents are dumb both in terms of mechanics and flavor. Huge spikey fast threat that is totally helpless if you use a hex wand.

[Leszczynek]

Apart from uniques, shock serpents and guardian serpents are the biggest threat of Snake. Honestly at this point I'm more afraid of salamander mystic packs as well. Nagarajas suffer from being very lightly armored and having bad weapons. Sometimes they will chunk you hard if they hit their spells a few times, but usually their danger level is similar to warriors, which are supposed to be a step below them.

I wonder if giving them a torpor snail effect would help.

[duvessa]

Giving nagarajas 4 weapons frankly won't do anything. They're too easy to keep out of melee range. Also it's terrible interface and generally a bad design; you could accomplish the same thing by just increasing their base melee damage.

It is odd that rPois doesn't matter in a specifically poison-themed branch, yes, but I don't think spider's monster set is contradictory to the extent way Snake's is. Most of the endvaults have wolf spiders and spark wasps, they feel like they're trying to sell emperor scorpions and ghost moths as the rare oddities that they are rather than the dangerous monsters that they aren't. On the other hand, 5 of the 8 Snake endvaults don't even place shock serpents, and nagaraja are described as "magnificent" and "experts at both martial and magical arts".
Spider and emperor scorpions is basically the same situation as Lair and dire elephants.

[GravitySqueeze]

What if Nagarajas had one of their spells replaced with Lesser Beckoning?

[tabstorm]

enemies with af:* or projectiles are basically always going to outperform enemies that mainly attack with unflavored melee if their nominal damage is similar. if you want nagarajas to be the strongest monster you basically have to increase their damage or give them shields. another option would be to give them something like OOD like Lamia used to have.

[amaril]

Spider and emperor scorpions is basically the same situation as Lair and dire elephants

The problem w/ nagarajas is that they feel too much like other nagas. They are a mage/warrior hybrid w/o any striking features. In that sense, they are like dire elephants relative to the rest of lair (imo dire elephants don't feel exotic--they are death yaks w/ knockback), whereas emperor scorpions are far tankier than most spider monsters (even wolf spiders) and are poison resistant, meaning gimmick tactics that work everywhere else won't work on them. I think nagarajas should be combined w/ naga mages and given a more powerful spellset.

I like the idea of nagarajas having lesser beckoning (thanks GravitySqueeze) b/c it works with the branch's constriction mechanic and allows other nagas to catch up to the player. They could also have dig or something, because killholes are super effective rn in snake. Tele other is a player boon, and if it isn't it can be cured w/ a tele scroll. It should be removed from the spell list.

As an aside, sharpshooters and guardian serpents are the scariest snake monsters right now in my experience. Sharpshooters punish the player for getting caught in bad positions, guardian serpents get the player instantly into bad positions, and naga warrior constriction = the bad position the player gets caught in. Shock serpents amplify the danger of any situation they stroll into, but they are so susceptible to hex wands that they seem less dangerous than sharpshooters, who can deal a lot of damage from anywhere in los and are surprisingly difficult to kill.

[Implojin]

this is a problem caused by power creep

How can we further buff the snake monsterset?

Oh tavern, don't ever change.

Discussions about making Snake's monsterset more dangerous ought to be based around whether or not Snake's monsterset *needs to be more dangerous*. Beginning this conversation from the point of view of "Nagaraja's lore doesn't fit their actual danger level, so let's make them more dangerous" is entirely the wrong way to go about things, and will only lead to further power creep. An appropriate response to a lore problem is to spend 5 minutes rewriting the lore.

If you think that Snake is too easy in general then that's a fine position to discuss, but *begin the conversation from that point*.

[amaril]

I don't think the problem is one of power level so much as differentiation. Buffing an aspect of a monster (or giving it a weakness) encourages the player to treat that monster differently from all the other monsters.

edit: i get that the op focused on power creep, but i feel that [power creep] and [the problem the op pointed out re najaragas] are different problems.

[Shard1697]

You could always move shields over to Nagaraja and remove it from warriors. Of course, warriors would be quite boring then.

[Leszczynek]

If you think that Snake is too easy in general then that's a fine position to discuss, but *begin the conversation from that point*.

I think Snake is too much of a tab galore as it is already, especially (some of) the damn rune vaults that just pour out 10 more enemies for each 5 you kill. It's a bit like Crypt except you usually have no interest skipping it.

[tasonir]

I'd definitely agree that sharpshooters overshadow most of the monsters in snake. I don't usually find shock serpents to be *that* bad, but they are definitely strong if you can't soften them up at range first and don't have rElec. Either of those goes a long way towards making them much easier, though.

Imho a small nerf to sharpshooter damage is probably enough to balance out the branch, but I could also see a buff to nagaraja if desired. If you wanted to take a point or two off shock serpent damage, I wouldn't complain, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

[Floodkiller]

Merge nagaraja and sharpshooters, make them more likely to generate with venom branded launchers, and maybe take away some spells if necessary. I consider sharpshooters the true top-tier naga in Snake, while everything else is more likely to take you down by attrition than threat (other than shock serpents and maybe anacondas). That, and there doesn't really need to be two kinds of mages, except one is nice enough to teleport you out of the ending vault if you foolishly charge right in.