The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread


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Post Saturday, 29th April 2017, 18:58

The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

All of these suggestions below have come up before, so here they are in one coherent package.

Potion of Flying: Remove. It's an extremely narrow and weak temporary effect that eats a player inventory slot.
Evokable Flying from items: Remove. Even worse for Crawl than potion of flying, because it's tedious also.
Perma-flight from items: Keep. Feel free to bikeshed which item slots this ego should show up on. My suggestion is cloaks, boots, and randarts only.
Racial perma-flight: Keep.
Racial temporary evokable flight: Remove. Tedious.
Toggling perma-flight on and off: Remove. It's tedious.
Player flying from tornado and monster-cast tornado: Keep. This will be less of a shit-show than it currently is with the changes to deep water and lava below.

Extra damage to flying player from the Airstrike spell: Remove. Flight is not a strong enough resistance to need a drawback, and this drawback in particular is extremely tedious to deal with optimally for the 0.3% of the enemies where it is relevant.
Roots monster spell temporarily removing flight: This is fine. But the flight needs to automatically restore itself when the roots spell ends.
Tengu flying faster than they walk: Remove. We have enough races with fast movement speed. It doesn't make sense that no other flyers get this bonus.
Tengu getting a weird 20% EV bonus when flying: Remove, replace with a fixed EV bonus gained at specific XLs.
Flying and traps: Flying should give immunity to all traps except teleport and zot. Rationale: This flight buff goes towards making it a worthwhile resistance.

Shallow water: Should slow player movement by a fixed amount, and give a fixed chance of fumbling attacks. Large or swimming races would still be immune. Currently the mechanics for how much the player is slowed and how often he fumbles are pointlessly complicated and opaque.
Deep water: Should slow all player movement and actions by a large fixed amount, but no drowning or HP loss. Insta-death does not belong in crawl.
Lava: Should slow all player movement (including large and swimming races) like shallow water, and apply a large amount of fire damage every turn. But, no insta-death until your HP runs out.
Flying and terrain: No change, should still make the player immune to terrain. (from a real world physics perspective, flying above lava is about as bad as walking on it, but that shouldn't apply in crawl)

Items in shallow or deep water: Should be available for pickup by the player just as in normal terrain.
Items in lava: Should be instantly destroyed.
Items in Shoals: The action of the tides should gradually move all items towards normal terrain. QOL improvement.

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Post Sunday, 30th April 2017, 08:11

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

I agree with all of this for the most part. The much lesser-known interaction of frost breath knocking back flying players should also be removed for the same reason as Airstrike. Overall, flying is too situational to need downsides to balance it, and removing the downsides has the added benefit of removing the need to ever toggle flight. Drowning has no place in the game, and without drowning we can more easily scrap more common sources of temporary flight (potions and rings) since we don't have to worry about players being unable to complete certain areas without it.

I'd also add that autoexplore should avoid deep water for non-flying/aquatic characters (or maybe if everything else is explored it could give a prompt asking if the player wants it to explore deep water). This is both to avoid autoexplore putting the player withing sight of an enemy while in deep water (which could easily be a death sentence if the enemy is aquatic or ranged), and so that autoexplore doesn't spend absurd amounts of time exploring all of the water in the shoals.

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Post Sunday, 30th April 2017, 17:23

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

I vote against flat out removing airstrike. Take it away from enemies, sure, but leave it for use by the player. It is a useful spell.

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Post Sunday, 30th April 2017, 19:16

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Quaz, yeah, remove that too. Anything where player flying is a disadvantage,

POK: Agreed that player Airstrike should stay, and it's fine if it does more damage to fliers. Monster Airstrike can stay, but it should do the same damage to flying and nonflying players. Perhaps rename it to "Greater Smite" or whatever so it isn't confused with the player version.

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Post Monday, 1st May 2017, 16:53

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Rast wrote:Roots monster spell temporarily removing flight: This is fine. But the flight needs to automatically restore itself when the roots spell ends.

That would become completely useless, since there would be absolutely no difference between flying/not flying when not over water. If flying restores itself on its own, then the roots have no effect.
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Post Monday, 1st May 2017, 19:10

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

I'm assuming monster behavior with respect to water would be unchanged?
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Post Monday, 1st May 2017, 19:52

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Fingolfin wrote:
Rast wrote:Roots monster spell temporarily removing flight: This is fine. But the flight needs to automatically restore itself when the roots spell ends.

That would become completely useless, since there would be absolutely no difference between flying/not flying when not over water. If flying restores itself on its own, then the roots have no effect.


They would still have the effect of (per learndb) reducing EV and move speed.

Alternately, flight could give total immunity to the Roots spell, thus increasing the value of flight.

@njvack. Sure, drowning monsters with confuse is fun.
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Post Monday, 1st May 2017, 21:55

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

My main problem with the deep water and lava proposal is that they would trigger Y/N on movement, which is something I hate.

Lava is interesting as an impassable terrain you can shoot over. Deep water is an impassable terrain that certain monsters can ignore. I don't think they need remodelling.

The items deal is interesting. I think it would be enough if flying characters could quickly get in and out of deep water to recover stuff in there. This means seeing what's in it even if you can't fly.

I like the flight proposals.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 04:54

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Shtopit wrote:My main problem with the deep water and lava proposal is that they would trigger Y/N on movement, which is something I hate.


Deep water wouldn't need a Y/N prompt. If you typo into it, you can walk back out unharmed.

Lava, well, it would be no worse than flame clouds or Zot traps in this regard.

Lava is interesting as an impassable terrain you can shoot over. Deep water is an impassable terrain that certain monsters can ignore. I don't think they need remodelling.


Certain other monsters can ignore lava. We don't need two different flavors of "impassible terrain that you can shoot over and some monsters can ignore and you can fly over it unharmed".

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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 05:57

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Rast wrote:Lava, well, it would be no worse than flame clouds or Zot traps in this regard.
We don't have vaults that cover 25% of the level in Zot traps

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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 12:18

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Speaking of vaults, a lot of vaults use deep water / lava to sequester items or confine player movement and would need adjusting.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 13:09

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

duvessa wrote:
Rast wrote:Lava, well, it would be no worse than flame clouds or Zot traps in this regard.
We don't have vaults that cover 25% of the level in Zot traps

Yet.

More seriously, any change involving how deep water and lava work would impact a large number of vaults, so even though I like this proposal/have made some of these suggestions myself in the past, I can see why it'd be hard to accomplish. It's a lot of work to solve one of Crawl's more minor problems, as vexing as I find said problem.

That said, anyone willing to put in that time really would be doing the game a solid, for all the reasons that led to the proposals Rast collected in the OP.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 13:40

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Continuing to treat lava as no-go territory would let us convert deep water to lava in vaults and salvage many of them.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 18:23

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Most of this seems appalling. For example, airstrike fills a critical strategic niche for players to fight against some really nasty stuff like caustic shrikes. And it only seems fair for the monsters to be able to put flying players at a disadvantage occasionally. (I say this despite multiple bad experiences with titans ... are there any *good* experiences with titans? :) I mean, this *is* supposed to be something of a strategy game, and taking out strategies isn't a good idea.

That said, the early days of folks randomly stumbling into the Swamp or getting blown into the water have led to a progressive reform of drowning, for good reason, because it's all YASDs. But the real reform ought to be simply that you can touch down and swim -- really slow, huge disadvantage -- instead of just flat out dying. It may seem weird to swim while you're hauling around those 30 suits of plate mail, but hey, if I want to make an explanation, I'll say you "really" have a magic deck of cards and you touch the plate mail and "ace of spades" it into an inventory slot where it remains plainly visible (shadowhunter style) on the card until you "ace of spades" it out again, I dunno. If it takes 2.0 or 3.0 movement to swim out of deep water, that's pretty lethal without requiring all these desperate crackdowns on temporary flight that leaves you in the lurch. And with the fear *lessened*, all the temp flight things can be more fun.

Even touching down on the magma doesn't have to be instantly lethal if you have some fire resistance. Just dog paddle and... grab the snake, the rope, whatever. Seriously though, magma is liquid rock, which is as dense as solid rock, which is to say, much more than water, so you float on it, if you can avoid turning into flame along the way.

The biggest problem with temp flight items really is the lack of excuse - a lot of the old vaults that encouraged you to quaff a potion and nervously wander out into a mysterious horn of water (where the orange statue was sure to be waiting...) are no longer here. So it seems like flight almost has to be permanent to be relevant, because then you use it tactically.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 20:02

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Chicken wrote:And it only seems fair for the monsters to be able to put flying players at a disadvantage occasionally.
Why? Flying barely helps you at all. Why should certain attacks do extra damage when you have a weak buff on, when stronger buffs like haste and might or tele don't have any such punishment mechanic?

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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 20:53

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

By comparison, it's like having monsters that inflict you more damage when haste is on. Do they exist? They would make more sense than airstrike. I think this is the only buff with this kind of backlash coming from monsters. All others are autoinflicted (contamination, exhaustion etc).

I think deep water would need Y/N because it is deadly to get into it with certain enemies around. Crystal spear'd! Paralyzed! Surrounded by enemies teleported by a shapeshifter that turned into a guardian serpent!
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 21:07

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Shard1697 wrote:Why? Flying barely helps you at all. Why should certain attacks do extra damage when you have a weak buff on, when stronger buffs like haste and might or tele don't have any such punishment mechanic?


If flying doesn't provide any benefit, then don't do it! Problem solved.

But I think flying has a lot of benefits. I mean, you don't fumble your attacks in the water - there's the huge one. You don't (didn't) take the extra damage for being emergency-stopped when being gusted into water, though honestly I don't know if that's relevant any more. You can flee over (almost) any kind of open tile in the Abyss -- not a huge one most of the time, but it sure is when you're there! And the punishment is really not *that* extreme, assuming you are a bit mindful if you plan any trips far from shore in titan territory.

As for the others, well, tele has a pretty huge punishment -- every time you do it, you have a fair chance of landing in the dead center of trouble, emphasis on the dead. And haste and might are not long-term or easily had buffs - it kind of makes sense, if you were a monster, you wouldn't keep a hasted-player killing weapon/spell on hand, because you'd never get to use it. (Though it would be great for the players because practically any monster that wants gets to memorize the haste spell and use it with wild abandon on itself and others)
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 22:11

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Shtopit wrote:By comparison, it's like having monsters that inflict you more damage when haste is on. Do they exist?

Clearly we need monsters that worship Chei so they can slouch you.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd May 2017, 23:04

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Chicken wrote:But I think flying has a lot of benefits.


So does rF+ but you don't see that with weird drawbacks.

Chicken wrote:Most of this seems appalling. For example, airstrike fills a critical strategic niche for players to fight against some really nasty stuff like caustic shrikes.


Again, I don't suggest a change to player-cast Airstrike.

I mean, this *is* supposed to be something of a strategy game, and taking out strategies isn't a good idea.


Toggling Flight on and off when you meet titans isn't strategy, it's tedium.

Shtopit wrote: I think deep water would need Y/N because it is deadly to get into it with certain enemies around.


Shallow water is dangerous too.

I think it would be enough for autoexplore to avoid deep water by default.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd May 2017, 01:55

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Flying's benefits are pretty niche because almost all of the time you can avoid fighting in shallow water fairly easily, and it's also rare for crossing deep water or lava to be meaningfully useful. Again, what's the point of the player taking more damage while doing this? Why make the player turn off boots of flight whenever a titan shows up to avoid getting smacked with huge damage, when it's basically just a convenience item anyways? I feel like most of the time I meet titans in vaults, where there's no liquids anyways.
Chicken wrote:And haste and might are not long-term or easily had buffs - it kind of makes sense, if you were a monster, you wouldn't keep a hasted-player killing weapon/spell on hand, because you'd never get to use it.
Well, so why do titans keep a spell that fucks flying players on hand? Haste and might are more valuable than flight, but also you're much more likely to use them against titans. Why wouldn't titans want a spell that damages players with other more meaningful buffs, rather than one that is good against flying, when players that are flying aren't any stronger vs. titans?

And it's not like you couldn't make up flavor for that, especially something which affects a hasted player, when the player has access to Chei who can hurt fast monsters more, and there are monsters who worship gods... so there COULD be a monster that used slouch, hurting you more when you are hasted. But there aren't, presumably because that's not really a necessary mechanic. So why a spell that does extra to flying players?

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Post Wednesday, 3rd May 2017, 15:52

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Shard1697 wrote:Flying's benefits are pretty niche because almost all of the time you can avoid fighting in shallow water fairly easily, and it's also rare for crossing deep water or lava to be meaningfully useful. Again, what's the point of the player taking more damage while doing this? Why make the player turn off boots of flight whenever a titan shows up to avoid getting smacked with huge damage, when it's basically just a convenience item anyways? I feel like most of the time I meet titans in vaults, where there's no liquids anyways.
Chicken wrote:And haste and might are not long-term or easily had buffs - it kind of makes sense, if you were a monster, you wouldn't keep a hasted-player killing weapon/spell on hand, because you'd never get to use it.
Well, so why do titans keep a spell that fucks flying players on hand? Haste and might are more valuable than flight, but also you're much more likely to use them against titans. Why wouldn't titans want a spell that damages players with other more meaningful buffs, rather than one that is good against flying, when players that are flying aren't any stronger vs. titans?

And it's not like you couldn't make up flavor for that, especially something which affects a hasted player, when the player has access to Chei who can hurt fast monsters more, and there are monsters who worship gods... so there COULD be a monster that used slouch, hurting you more when you are hasted. But there aren't, presumably because that's not really a necessary mechanic. So why a spell that does extra to flying players?

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Post Wednesday, 3rd May 2017, 16:56

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

Siegurt wrote:Fr: gastronook worships chei, thematic, and now he can screw you if you are hasted or flying.

Yeah, I had Gastronok on my mind too, he would just have to lose sprint.
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Post Wednesday, 3rd May 2017, 17:35

Re: The definitive flying/drowning/terrain reform thread

It would be ironically good, because you don't need haste to escape him (unless you feel sluggish).

Gastronok and Vashnia are probably the best candidates.
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