Should late-switch gods partially protect against wrath?

[shping]

Jiyva, Lugonu and sometimes Beogh don't show up until well after you've seen most or all of the other gods' altars. Should they provide some partial protection against the wrath of other gods?

[Airwolf]

You can take Beogh from the first orc priest you see, on like D:3, (and Lugonu on D:1 from choosing AK).

Partial wrath protection for Jiyva sounds interesting, though. (And maybe Luguno in the Abyss?)

[Quazifuji]

I'd rather just make Jiyva a temple god, personally, but I guess making Jiyva easier to switch to would be an alternative.

It still feels kind of like a pointless compromise to me, though. But I guess I also don't understand why Jiyva isn't a temple god in the first place. I get the impression that the original plan involved more non-temple gods than there are now, but since things have progressed to the current state where every other god is easily accessible early in the game one way or another, it seems kind of arbitrary to relegate Jiyva to only being available later without special vaults, and it doesn't seem to accomplish anything except very few people worshipping Jiyva.

[Factorialite]

Theme is secondary to function, but Jiyva eating some of your wrath is EXTREMELY thematic and seems like it would make 100% sense given how deep it's altar sometimes is.

[Sprucery]

I can't really think of any reason why Jiyva should not be a temple god, except flavour. And gameplay > flavour, so let's do it already.

[GravitySqueeze]

I can't really think of any reason why Jiyva should not be a temple god, except flavour. And gameplay > flavour, so let's do it already.

One good reason is that new players might be tricked into playing Jivya. As it stands now I'd rather see him removed than put in Temple.

[Sprucery]

One good reason is that new players might be tricked into playing Jivya. As it stands now I'd rather see him removed than put in Temple.

There's nothing wrong with new players trying to play Jiyva. And if the devs think it is an issue, it is easy to fix with a line in Jiyva's description.

[Quazifuji]

One good reason is that new players might be tricked into playing Jivya. As it stands now I'd rather see him removed than put in Temple.

Chei, Qazlal, and Xom are temple gods. If the goal is to keep new players away from gods that are weird or challenging, then Jiyva isn't the only one who shouldn't be in temple. But I'd rather new players be able to try out all the gods and find out if one has a weird playstyle that's not through them through experience rather than by making the weird or challenging gods inaccessible. I don't see how new players deciding to try out Jiyva to see what it's all about is them getting "tricked". If they end up hating Jiyva then they won't do it again.

I wouldn't mind Jiyva being relegated to overflow-vaults only outside of rare slime temples for flavor reasons, but I'd at least like to see those overflow vaults guaranteed in early D like the temple gods.

[tasonir]

Jivya is one of the stronger gods, imho. I don't see how it's a newbie trap. Maybe for the first few times you play, until you learn how everything works, but that's true for most non-trivial gods (most gods are trivial: just give you 2-4 powers and require no conduct/don't change any rules). After a few games once you understand jellies are flooding the dungeon and you might miss some items (but it doesn't matter), Jiyva is great for newbies.

+1 for moving Jiyva to temple, maybe then I could play it more

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I would like earlier Jiyva access. It's a fun god, that doesn't see enough play probably.

Mostly I end up with Jiyva if start with Fed and get tired of herding mushrooms.

[Plantissue]

Add a new zealot background- the Jelly Knight (JK).
New players can experiment with Jiyva and everyone can have fun with Jiyva from the start.

[Sprucery]

Add a new zealot background- the Jelly Knight (JK).
New players can experiment with Jiyva and everyone can have fun with Jiyva from the start.

It has been proposed many times, but it won't happen.

[Quazifuji]

Add a new zealot background- the Jelly Knight (JK).
New players can experiment with Jiyva and everyone can have fun with Jiyva from the start.

I think that also falls into the "pointless half-compromise" category. Either there's a concrete reason to keep Jiyva away from new characters outside of rare vaults, in which case such a reason would also probably serve as an arguments against Jelly Knights as well, or there isn't, in which case making Jiyva into a temple god would be a strictly better option than creating Jelly Knights.

The only arguments I could possibly imagine against Jiyva being available from altars early that wouldn't also be an argument against Slime Knights is flavor, and I don't think that's a very good argument. Admittedly, flavor is the main reason Lugonu's zealot-only, but I think there's a lot more flavor to Lugonu being zealot-only than Jiyva being zealot only. From what I understand, Lugonu's sort of an outcast among the DCSS pantheon, so it makes sense that altars would be hard to find in the dungeon and that people who do worship Lugonu would mostly be zealots and not just people who stumbled upon an altar. Jiyva seems like more of a neutral force who just has its own domain and no real conflict with the other gods. They might think Jiyva's a weirdo, but there doesn't seem to be any animosity that would prevent Jiyva from having altars near theirs like there is with Lugonu. And Jiyva's supporters are mostly mindless blobs, not fanatical zealots.

[yesno]

if jiyva doesnt work as a temple god or a zealot start god then how much does jiyva really add to the game? if jiyva is added as a temple god and doesn't work it will receive a lot more attention than ever before and either be reformed or removed.

[NhorianScum]

For balance and flavor reason's I'd like to see a clear split between temple and non-temple gods in general.

Jiv moved to a random altar vault in D would be nice but lucy should probably stay rare for obvious reasons.