About Ogres in trunk....

[Voxden]

!Before reading, please do note that I know it is just Trunk, and it might not even make it into the game, but I am just giving a small suggestion!

I think Ogres are already in a bad spot with limited aptitudes that they actually do well in(tho this might not be a bad thing due to there power!)... they do well with doing damage in melee, but they have a bit of a hard time hitting enemies until mid-game(tho that is just personal experience), and they are pretty bad at defense due to limited armor options(which also limits stat bonuses!)... coupled with dodging penalties from size and aptitude in the skill, we are looking at a race that is more of a glass cannon. The only thing they can hope to defend with reasonably enough is large shields, but even then shields don't stop everything, and it only decreases their melee damage.

So instead of just removing their M&F for a bit better magic all around... Why not just make the base Ogre Aptitude with M&F +2 and Fighting a +2, and give them a -1 or 0 aptitude in spell schools that have very simple themes and uses, but make the more complex themed magic have a -3 or -4 aptitude?
The idea is that simple magic could be used to show their grasp for raw witchcraft, but the more arcane ones still confound them. this keeps most of their original theme intact(just a slight nerf to balance this slightly), but makes spellcasting easier then before. Best of both worlds. In short this makes them not look like durable punching-bag mages, but more a simple(which doesn't mean stupid) people who favor simple things in both magic and melee.

Thoughts?

EDIT: for some reason it still posted stuff that I tried to edit out before posting... so If I came back and cleared some needless stuff out from my post.

[Siegurt]

!Before reading, please do note that I know it is just Trunk, and it might not even make it into the game, but I am just giving a small suggestion!

I think Ogres are already in a bad spot with limited aptitudes that they actually do well in(tho this might not be a bad thing due to there power!)... they do well with doing damage in melee, but they have a bit of a hard time hitting enemies until mid-game(tho that is just personal experience), and they are pretty bad at defense due to limited armor options(which also limits stat bonuses!)... coupled with dodging penalties from size and aptitude in the skill, we are looking at a race that is more of a glass cannon. The only thing they can hope to defend with reasonably enough is large shields, but even then shields don't stop everything, and it only decreases their melee damage.

So instead of just removing their M&F for a bit better magic all around... Why not just make the base Ogre Aptitude with M&F +2 and Fighting a +2, and give them a -1 or 0 aptitude in spell schools that have very simple themes and uses, but make the more complex themed magic have a -3 or -4 aptitude?
The idea is that simple magic could be used to show their grasp for raw witchcraft, but the more arcane ones still confound them. this keeps most of their original theme intact(just a slight nerf to balance this slightly), but makes spellcasting easier then before. Best of both worlds. In short this makes them not look like durable punching-bag mages, but more a simple(which doesn't mean stupid) people who favor simple things in both magic and melee.

Thoughts?

EDIT: for some reason it still posted stuff that I tried to edit out before posting... so If I came back and cleared some needless stuff out from my post.

Well, there is no delineation you could draw between simple and complex themed magic, as far as skills go, so that part doesn't make much sense.

They also got more than just spell aptitudes (they are now decent with several weapons), and lowering their fighting aptitude to +2 would make early game survivability worse, not better.

[Voxden]

!Before reading, please do note that I know it is just Trunk, and it might not even make it into the game, but I am just giving a small suggestion!

I think Ogres are already in a bad spot with limited aptitudes that they actually do well in(tho this might not be a bad thing due to there power!)... they do well with doing damage in melee, but they have a bit of a hard time hitting enemies until mid-game(tho that is just personal experience), and they are pretty bad at defense due to limited armor options(which also limits stat bonuses!)... coupled with dodging penalties from size and aptitude in the skill, we are looking at a race that is more of a glass cannon. The only thing they can hope to defend with reasonably enough is large shields, but even then shields don't stop everything, and it only decreases their melee damage.

So instead of just removing their M&F for a bit better magic all around... Why not just make the base Ogre Aptitude with M&F +2 and Fighting a +2, and give them a -1 or 0 aptitude in spell schools that have very simple themes and uses, but make the more complex themed magic have a -3 or -4 aptitude?
The idea is that simple magic could be used to show their grasp for raw witchcraft, but the more arcane ones still confound them. this keeps most of their original theme intact(just a slight nerf to balance this slightly), but makes spellcasting easier then before. Best of both worlds. In short this makes them not look like durable punching-bag mages, but more a simple(which doesn't mean stupid) people who favor simple things in both magic and melee.

Thoughts?

EDIT: for some reason it still posted stuff that I tried to edit out before posting... so If I came back and cleared some needless stuff out from my post.

Well, there is no delineation you could draw between simple and complex themed magic, as far as skills go, so that part doesn't make much sense.

They also got more than just spell aptitudes (they are now decent with several weapons), and lowering their fighting aptitude to +2 would make early game survivability worse, not better.

thanks for the comment, but they already got a boost up from -3 to -1 in every spell aptitude in the trunk. I was merely pointing out a balancing solution. taking away their only positive melee aptitude entirely makes a bonus to fighting skill useless in my opinion. this suggestion just is to give them the ability to handle the things the old fashioned ogre way, but leaves room for a small lean towards magic to be more effective in the late game(well that is how it is in the stable version, but they only get a -3 aptitude across the board in magic(aside from spellcasting skill which is +1)). also a nerf to base fighting skill doesn't mean much since they get +30% hp gain anyway(and having a good weapon aptitude helps.), and they get a low dexterity as well so that means their accuracy is gimped a bit in melee, but a high skill and taking a few dexterity points per 3 levels can make up if their skill aptitude is good enough to boost how fast they learn that skill.

Also back to the part about spell aptitudes, you are right I probably could of said that differently.... tho chances are no matter how I say it there will always be a catch, so i wont bother fixing it in the main post. I will just say simple themed magic could be more straight forward spells that don't require strategic thinking in its usage(damage spells, protective spells, etc.), and the more complex themed spells are what I feel take more strategy to use(debuffing, movement, etc.). would that sound like it makes more sense?

[chequers]

Ogre accuracy is only bad if you try to use a giant (spiked) club at low levels of skill. Unlike when their apt was +3 it's no longer optimal to equip the first GC/GSC you find. The low dex isn't really important.

The differences between sorts of spells you are talking about still isn't clear. Which spell schools specifically would get lower aptitudes, and which would get higher?

[duvessa]

Unlike when their apt was +3 it's no longer optimal to equip the first GC/GSC you find.?

This isn't true. Giant clubs and giant spiked clubs are the best 0 skill base types in the game. Compare their damage/delay to any other weapon. No aptitude change is going to fix that.

[Siegurt]

taking away their only positive melee aptitude entirely makes a bonus to fighting skill useless in my opinion.

This is incorrect. Fighting is useful for every build on every character, and more so if you fight primarily in melee than if you fight primarily at a distance. If you have lower offense then fighting becomes more important, not less (as you need to tank more hits to kill the same things)