Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 242

Joined: Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:51

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 17:05

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Siegurt wrote:Can you sacrifice armour/dodging/evocations with ru?

Good question, I'll bring it up in crawl-dev for discussion when I'm off of work. I'm not quite sure if it makes sense to ban Arcana sacs and not the other "sacrifice a skill" options.

Edit:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:underhound.eu still has old gnolls with 7 everything and +3 aptitudes. How long does it usually take to update trunk?

It's usually whenever anyone with rebuild rights for the server finds out and find a rebuild, so I'm not sure for underground.

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VeryAngryFelid

Halls Hopper

Posts: 70

Joined: Wednesday, 13th April 2016, 01:37

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 19:15

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I imagine Okawaru will be very powerful with this iteration of Gnoll, which isn't a bad thing (Okawaru is broadly good), but may play with skills in a way that is against the design goals of the Gnoll.

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Floodkiller

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1184

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 21:45

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I don't really see what makes Oka extra powerful here. It'll still be weaker than the usual suspects.

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duvessa, nago, NhorianScum

Halls Hopper

Posts: 59

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 21:57

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Things I see from running this build so far --

1) Getting higher lvl spells, weapons, armor, etc. at usable skill levels will be hard because of the diverse training. When you're training ALL skills and their ALL at lvl 14, things move slow.

2) Chei is a decent combo because the stat boosts make more things compatible with your limited skills, particularly on the spellcasting side of things.

3) Transmuter looks good because you're automatically picking up the requisite skills in Poison, Ice, etc that support alternate forms.

4) Super focused builds (like, say, Necromancer of Kiku) will suffer because there will be a point where upper-level focused skills will be lagging behind what a player that can focus 60%+ of their XP into their key skills could achieve.


I'm sure there are more details, but that's it for now. I like the general feel, though. Works nice.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 228

Joined: Saturday, 2nd July 2016, 13:16

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:14

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Alphaeus wrote:Things I see from running this build so far --

3) Transmuter looks good because you're automatically picking up the requisite skills in Poison, Ice, etc that support alternate forms.

yeah, my prediction is that Transmutation and its supporting skills (unarmed, etc.) might need to be among those with somewhat lowered aptitudes.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 59

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:20

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

luckless wrote:
Alphaeus wrote:Things I see from running this build so far --

3) Transmuter looks good because you're automatically picking up the requisite skills in Poison, Ice, etc that support alternate forms.

yeah, my prediction is that Transmutation and its supporting skills (unarmed, etc.) might need to be among those with somewhat lowered aptitudes.


The thing is, with this iteration of Gnolls, I don't see it being logical to penalize any individual skills, because all that will do is push it to be advanced into ANOTHER skill area. Besides, even dropping Transmutation to +6 would leave it drastically enhanced.

On the flip side, the upper-end complications of this design would limit your top-notch transmutation spells, to some degree. I don't see Gnolls feasibly casting Necromutation, for example, until MUCH later in the game. Dragon Form is probably the highest you could get by mid-game (rings of Wiz and other boosters aside).

Slime Squisher

Posts: 409

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:56

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Well you don't really want to cast necromutation in the midgame so...

e: ontopic, I'm looking forward to giving this iteration a try. I imagine that the current numbers are "too good" for winrate play but they're still gonna be weaker than DD,Ce,Tr so I don't think it's that huge of a deal.

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nago

Blades Runner

Posts: 541

Joined: Monday, 23rd March 2015, 05:29

Post Thursday, 28th September 2017, 23:20

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

rename gnolls to dogtaurs

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nago

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 682

Joined: Monday, 29th September 2014, 09:04

Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 00:18

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I don't think Oka will be good because gifts will be unfocused, and I don't think Tm will be good because you will never get good UC skill, so weapons are better.

But this a very radical re-imagining of how Crawl's skill system can work. It's lots of fun, and great work getting this into vanilla rather than a fork!

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luckless

Slime Squisher

Posts: 409

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 00:55

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I don't think Oka's gifting will be that much worse, since you can switch to whatever weapon type you're gifted without having to "waste" exp. Heroism and finesse are always relevant and heroism is especially nice when you can't get high levels of skill easily (though gnolls also can't stop training 5 levels before mindelay to conserve exp later). Oka won't dethrone the standard op picks but I'd expect Gn^Oka to be a popular choice and reasonably strong.

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chequers, Floodkiller, nago, VeryAngryFelid
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 12:49

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Aptitudes of +8 sounds very strong to me, even if spread out over all 31 skills. In terms of individual skill growth it (roughly) equals training 15 skills at +4, and eight skills at 0 aptitudes. That is not particularly slow going, and you get everything for it. As someone who does not mind training 10 skills simultaneously, this gives me an awesome character to play with. I'll give it a try as soon as I can.
Maɟaŋ

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VeryAngryFelid
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 14:20

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Obviously, I couldn't resist and started, although I really have something else to do. Here are some early observations:
  • I started as an EE up to level 10 for now, and sandblast starts out with a strong #### spell power. Stone Arrow becomes immediately castable at level 3, with ### spell power. Even LRD is at 22% failure rate when you get it. Whatever you meet, dies to you at once.
  • Having all skills grow means that you have tons of survival options. Any weapon can be picked up, and wands, launchers and evocables are immediately useful.
  • This makes inventory management more of a bother than with any other species. All items are potentially useful, so on what basis do you throw away things?
  • Skill grow feels very slow in the beginning, but the later I get into the game, the less I am bothered by it. It indeed feels not different to what I do usually with my broad skill training.
So far I don't know what this game means for reaching my beloved level 9 nukes. I suspect I can get them ready as usual, at about reaching the lower levels of the Depths, but this time with a much more rounded character.
To be continued.
Maɟaŋ

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Blomdor, nago

Slime Squisher

Posts: 374

Joined: Saturday, 29th March 2014, 20:53

Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 19:46

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I love the New Gnoll! I tried them out last night, and while the character ended up splatting stupidly in Crypt, that is my fault and does not reflect poorly on the species. It actually was not difficult to get there.

There is something greatly satisfying in being able (and encouraged) to use whatever the dungeon sees fit to give you. Found "Zephyr"? Go collect some arrows and shoot stuff down. Trident of the Octopus King? Not bad. Earth magic spellbooks? Hey look, you can cast Stone Arrow in crystal plate!

It is *really* cool and a refreshing change from playing the same sort of brainless melee bruiser that I always run with. Actually, a big part of my downfall was that I was still trying to play that way and not paying enough attention to other options. They're naturals with Okawaru; with heroism, not only are you competent at doing everything, you become actually pretty good at it! The unfocused nature of his gifts actually becomes something of a strong point, because you don't care whether he gives you an eveningstar or a longbow - you can use either one if it's a good weapon.

Skill advancement does seem to become very slow at around the 14 mark. I noticed that manuals are apparently still effective, but the bonus doesn't really seem to cause a particular skill to rocket ahead of the others at least at higher levels, and by the time I splatted my Manual of Armour had only pushed my Armour skill to about 1 level ahead of the average as I recall. But 14 skill is enough for mindelay on quite a number of different weapons, and enough to use a fair number of spells reliably, so it does not feel like a horribly crippling thing. You're a true jack of all trades. It's certainly different from other species, that's for sure.

Edit: Majang reminds me that inventory management was a bother, but I refuse to lay the responsibility for that on gnolls. Inventory management is always a bother no matter what species you are, with the possible exception of felids.

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ThreeInvisibleDucks

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 270

Joined: Wednesday, 9th July 2014, 08:20

Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 20:19

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I'll agree that the species is considerably stronger than its previous iteration, and in my opinion much more fun to play (although I regret not finishing a proper GnVM^Chei challenge). The new version is good at everything during both early and late game, you never truly fall off because experience is plentiful and most skills are at near-peak usefulness in the level 16-20 range, which is easily attainable. This Gn can probably tolerate lowered aptitudes or a sub-27 hardcap on skills.

That said, I liked the idea behind the previous version. Perhaps its unfun/low-powered gameplay issues can be fixed by making demigods into reverse-v2gnolls, with even worse aptitudes but their existing high stats plus increased stat gain from any source.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 59

Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17

Post Friday, 29th September 2017, 20:30

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I like the high apts on the Gnolls and wouldn't want to see them lowered. That said, I think you could but a skill level cap on them. The problem is the impact this will give on some builds, but idk. The idea of Gnolls isn't to be so ridiculously focused as it is to be using everything all the time whenever you find the best the RNG gives you.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 00:31

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Floodkiller wrote:but gammafunk, elliptic, mikee and others pitched in to put together another version. It's pretty close to what one of my backup plans were, so it's got my approval.

So this is literally just my idea. =P I told elliptic how I thought we could fix gnolls and he said something like, that sounds potentially awful. The next day I'm hearing about elliptic's brilliant idea to fix gnolls and it's just what I'd said to him! That being said, ideas are cheap and I put in zero actual work.

I'm still testing my first moon orc (this is the name I'm pushing for now), and the power curve looks really interesting. I expect them to be pretty bad in the middle of the game and I'm around lair now so it'll be good to see how that goes. Okawaru and faith may reduce that midgame difficulty more than anything else. Also choosing a start that gets a weapon choice seems to have a weird effect because the extra levels in that weapon seem to bias you heavily towards that weapon type - maybe that's ok.
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duvessa, Hellmonk, nago

Snake Sneak

Posts: 124

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 05:09

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 01:15

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I got a GnTm going and have 3 runes:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-320-gefad53e (webtiles) character file.

Kramin the Alchemist (Gnoll Transmuter)            Turns: 41940, Time: 03:33:17

Health: 171/171    AC: 29    Str: 15    XL:     22   Next: 78%
Magic:  41/41      EV: 27    Int: 31    God:    Ashenzari [******]
Gold:   1647       SH:  9    Dex: 16    Spells: 1/51 levels left

rFire    + + .     SeeInvis +   a - +8 demon blade (elec)
rCold    + + +     Gourm    .   M - +1 buckler {rF+}
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   c - +4 skin of Zhor {rC+++} (curse)
rPois    .         Spirit   .   K - +2 helmet {Int+3} (curse)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   F - scarf {rC+ rF+} (curse)
rCorr    .         Harm     .   J - +1 pair of gloves "Maargh" {Int+5} (curse)
MR       +....     Clarity  +   Y - +2 pair of boots (curse)
Stlth    +++++++...             E - amulet of magic regeneration (curse)
HPRegen  0.38/turn              v - +6 ring of protection (curse)
MPRegen  0.52/turn              t - +6 ring of protection (curse)

@: deflect missiles
A: distributed training, fangs 1, strong nose
}: 3/15 runes: barnacled, silver, gossamer
a: Curse Item, Scrying, Renounce Religion


You are on level 4 of the Depths.
You worship Ashenzari.
Ashenzari is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 41 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 2 times.

You have collected 5224 gold pieces.
You have spent 3577 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +8 demon blade of electrocution (weapon)
Missiles
 V - 4 throwing nets (quivered) {!f}
Armour
 c - the cursed +4 skin of Zhor (worn) {rC+++}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It renders you almost immune to cold.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 n - a +2 shield
 F - a cursed scarf of resistance (worn)
 J - the cursed +1 pair of gloves "Maargh" (worn) {Int+5}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 K - a cursed +2 helmet of intelligence (worn)
 M - a +1 buckler of fire resistance (worn)
 Y - a cursed +2 pair of boots (worn)
Magical Staves
 b - an uncursed staff of power {!a}
Jewellery
 t - a cursed +6 ring of protection (right hand)
 v - a cursed +6 ring of protection (left hand)
 E - a cursed amulet of magic regeneration (around neck)
 I - a +6 amulet of reflection
Wands
 G - a wand of acid (14/15)
 W - a wand of scattershot (4/9)
Scrolls
 f - 7 scrolls of remove curse
 j - 18 scrolls of identify
 k - 8 scrolls of recharging
 m - 9 scrolls of amnesia
 o - 27 scrolls of teleportation
 p - 2 scrolls of holy word
 u - 6 scrolls of noise {!r}
 y - 4 scrolls of blinking
 B - a scroll of fear
 D - 2 scrolls of summoning
 L - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
 O - 3 scrolls of fog
 Q - 5 scrolls of enchant armour
Potions
 e - 5 potions of invisibility
 i - 9 potions of heal wounds
 l - 3 potions of berserk rage
 q - 6 potions of might
 w - 3 potions of flight
 x - 15 potions of curing
 z - a potion of agility
 A - 2 potions of haste
 C - 4 potions of cancellation
 S - 5 potions of ambrosia
 U - 9 potions of brilliance
 X - 4 potions of magic
 Z - 3 potions of resistance
Books
 s - a book of Burglary   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Swiftness                    Charms/Air                    2
    b - Passwall                     Transmutation/Earth           2
    c - Passage of Golubria          Translocation                 4
    d - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction   Earth                         5
    e - Darkness                     Hexes                         6
    f - Invisibility                 Hexes                         6
Miscellaneous
 h - a fan of gales
 H - a lightning rod (4/4) {!a}
 N - 3 boxes of beasts
Comestibles
 d - 22 bread rations
 g - 21 meat rations
 P - 34 fruits


   Skills:
 + Level 13.9 Fighting
 + Level 14.4 Short Blades
 + Level 14.3 Long Blades
 + Level 14.6 Axes
 + Level 15.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 13.8 Polearms
 + Level 13.7 Staves
 + Level 14.3 Slings
 + Level 13.9 Bows
 + Level 14.6 Crossbows
 + Level 13.5 Throwing
 + Level 14.0 Armour
 + Level 14.8(18.8) Dodging
 + Level 13.7(17.8) Stealth
   Level 0.0 Stabbing
 + Level 14.1 Shields
   Level 0.0 Traps
 + Level 15.1 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 15.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9(18.9) Conjurations
 + Level 14.1(18.2) Hexes
 + Level 14.3(18.4) Charms
 + Level 14.0(18.1) Summonings
 + Level 13.7(17.8) Necromancy
 + Level 14.4(18.5) Translocations
 + Level 15.4(19.4) Transmutations
 + Level 13.5(17.6) Fire Magic
 + Level 14.0(18.0) Ice Magic
 + Level 14.0(18.0) Air Magic
 + Level 14.1(18.2) Earth Magic
 + Level 14.4(18.4) Poison Magic
 + Level 14.3 Invocations
 + Level 13.7(17.7) Evocations


You have one spell level left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Death Channel         Necr           #######...   1%          6    ###....
e - Orb of Destruction    Conj           #######...   1%          7    #####..
f - Infestation           Necr           #######...   9%          8    ######.
m - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          6    ###....
q - Statue Form           Tmut/Erth      #######..    1%          6    ###....
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   0%          3    None
v - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #######...   1%          6    ###....
x - Ignition              Fire           #######...   9%          8    ######.


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:4       Spider (4/4) Lair:2        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:11            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:3     Depths (4/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Qazlal
Ru
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
Orc:1 [   Orc:2 ([:}   Shoals:4 *%(   Depths:2 =(=

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3
Abyss: Depths:1
Pandemonium: Depths:1 Depths:3
Ziggurat: Depths:1
Trove: D:15 (give 7 potions of agility)

Annotations:
D:9 exclusion: statue
Depths:3 1 transporter


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

Your experience applies equally to all skills.
You have very sharp teeth.
Your uncanny sense of smell can sniff out nearby items.


Message History

The butt troll butt is heavily wounded.
The deep troll shaman completely misses you.
You block the deep troll shaman's attack.
The deep troll shaman claws you but does no damage.
You slash the deep troll shaman!
Lightning courses through the deep butt shaman!
You kill the deep troll shaman!
No target in view!
No target in view!
You eat the royal jelly. That royal jelly was delicious!
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, Kramin the Gnoll Transmuter.
Butt butts: Partake of my vision. Partake of my curse.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, Kramin the Gnoll Transmuter.
Ashenzari says: Partake of my vision. Partake of my curse.
Press ? for a list of commands and other butt.
Char dumped successfully.
Saving game... please wait.

,*,  *   * *  * *,* **   *      *
     *  , , ** *∆ ,  *,   ,
,* *    *{,     *,     , *,* *, ,
 *  *  ,** ∆ * *    {,{, ,,* *  ,
,,,,,*,* { ***##### **,**    ,,,
 * *  , ,  *###8.8###*∆ *, * *, ,
*, ,,***,####8.....8####  * ,,, ,
 ,  ,*  ,..8....<....8..,8**  , ,
, *,, ** 8...⌠..@..⌠...8 ** , , ,
   *  ,.###8...<.>...8## ,   *
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     *   #..###8.8### ,, *, , ,
 ,,  *,*, ,#..##.##.##..    ,,,,,
 * **  *{ {  #..........,,  * **,
   ***,*, ,#..##.##...#.,,,     ,
,,  , ,  #..##*8.8# #..$, *   ,*
  , ,*,#..#  8.....8  #.  ,  * **


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Mara (Shoals:3)
  2 ancient liches (Vaults:5)
  Sojobo (Vaults:4)
  Boris (Vaults:3)
  Nikola (Spider:1)
  Arachne (Spider:3)
  2 liches
  3 quicksilver dragons (Vaults:5)
  A kraken (Shoals:2)
  The ghost of aurelian the Severer, an adept HOSu of Beogh (Spider:4)
  2 titans
  Polyphemus (Shoals:3)
  2 sphinxes
  An Executioner (Abyss:3)
  Kirke (D:13)
  A tentacled starspawn (Abyss:3)
  A revenant (Vaults:3)
  Roxanne (Spider:2)
  6 tengu reavers
  A shadow dragon (Vaults:5)
  Ilsuiw (Shoals:4)
  A fire giant (Vaults:3)
  4 deep elf sorcerers
  3 frost giants
  3 ghost moths
  8 vault wardens
  5 emperor scorpions
  10 ironheart preservers
  7 very ugly things
  A war gargoyle (Vaults:5)
  6 entropy weavers
  2 spriggan defenders
  A deep elf demonologist (Vaults:1)
  8 stone giants
  Azrael (D:13)
  4 dire elephants (Lair:6)
  6 ettins
  4 spark wasps
  2 ettins (shapeshifter)
  5 merfolk javelineers
  A purple draconian (Abyss:3)
  A jiangshi (Vaults:3)
  10 merfolk impalers
  Josephine (Lair:4)
  A fire dragon (Vaults:3)
  A deep elf death mage (Vaults:4)
  12 yaktaur captains
  32 vault guards
  4 ogre magi
  4 hydras
  Harold (D:10)
  2 merfolk avatars
  2 great orbs of eyes
  A spriggan air mage (Depths:3)
  4 rakshasas
  9 centaur warriors
  3 catoblepae (Shoals:3)
  5 ice dragons
  13 two-headed ogres
  A tengu warrior (Depths:2)
  An alligator snapping turtle (Shoals:4)
  A merfolk aquamancer (Shoals:4)
  2 death knights
  A deep troll shaman (Depths:4)
  A vampire mage (Depths:3)
  3 spriggan berserkers
  6 orc high priests
  A deep troll earth mage (Depths:1)
  2 thrashing horrors (Abyss:3)
  4 death yaks
  Urug (D:10)
  4 deep elf knights
  A sixfirhy (Vaults:1)
  9 sea snakes
  A storm dragon skeleton (Vaults:1)
  2 shadow wraiths
  4 deep trolls
  A swamp dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  2 flayed ghosts
  2 glowing orange brains
  An unseen horror (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  A deep elf archer (Vaults:2)
  18 orc knights
  A lindwurm (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  3 necromancers
  13 ironbrand convokers
  2 phantasmal warriors (D:13)
  2 wizards
  A shining eye (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  2 harpies (Shoals:4)
  22 wolf spiders
  2 orb spiders
  8 fauns
  3 large abominations (Abyss:3)
  19 ugly things
  6 deep elf magi
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:1)
  5 cyclopes
  9 manticores
  2 human skeletons (Vaults:4)
  4 merfolk sirens
  11 elephants
  2 moths of wrath
  6 water nymphs
  Maurice (D:10)
  3 black mambas (shapeshifter)
  9 vault sentinels
  5 black mambas
  Joseph (D:10)
  14 spiny frogs
  A torpor snail (Lair:4)
  29 yaktaurs
  A spiny frog (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  3 rime drakes
  A gargoyle (D:14)
  A komodo dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  A yaktaur (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  2 efreet
  13 freezing wraiths
  A tengu conjurer (Depths:1)
  An ancient zyme (Vaults:1)
  5 komodo dragons
  4 demonic crawlers
  5 trolls
  2 meliai (D:15)
  4 wind drakes
  15 jumping spiders
  9 merfolk
  2 queen bees (shapeshifter)
  5 hornets
  A polar bear (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  17 slime creatures
  2 blink frogs (Lair:6)
  A hornet (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  6 raiju (Abyss:3)
  7 snapping turtles
  8 hippogriffs
  A raiju (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  A frost giant simulacrum (Vaults:2)
  4 dream sheep (Shoals:1)
  5 spriggans
  11 water elementals
  3 air elementals (Depths:3)
  12 tarantellas
  A wraith (Vaults:1)
  2 vampires
  68 redbacks
  2 ynoxinuls
  A hog (D:13)
  36 yaks
  3 basilisks
  2 neqoxecs (Abyss:3)
  4 hungry ghosts
  3 fire elementals (D:13)
  A golden eye (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  A warg (D:11)
  Edmund (D:4)
  17 soldier ants
  3 acid dragons
  12 water moccasins
  An ogre skeleton (Vaults:1)
  8 porcupines
  3 hell hounds (D:13)
  4 sky beasts
  An eye of draining (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  An ice beast (D:14)
  2 elf zombies
  2 phantoms (D:5)
  A black bear (D:7)
  A spriggan simulacrum (Depths:2)
  16 ogres
  38 orc warriors
  A hornet zombie (D:15)
  2 necrophages
  9 wolves
  A boggart (Vaults:2)
  8 crocodiles
  19 centaurs
  3 big kobolds (D:9)
  19 bullfrogs
  3 elf simulacra
  A wyvern skeleton (D:12)
  2 scorpions
  A small abomination (Abyss:3)
  6 killer bees
  3 wights (D:15)
  2 howler monkeys
  A howler monkey (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  7 crimson imps
  2 centaur zombies
  2 quasits
  2 bullfrog zombies
  7 hounds
  9 jellies
  5 centaur skeletons
  30 orc priests
  5 bullfrog skeletons
  Jessica (D:3)
  5 iguanas
  10 orc wizards
  2 hell rats (Lair:1)
  18 worker ants
  A worker ant (shapeshifter) (D:11)
  A hound skeleton (D:6)
  A mummy (D:5)
  A worker ant zombie (D:6)
  11 adders
  4 gnolls (D:6)
  18 river rats (Lair:1)
  2 shadow imps
  An ufetubus (Vaults:4)
  2 oozes
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  5 worms
  2 dart slugs
  3 leopard geckos
  58 orcs
  4 bats
  7 giant cockroaches
  4 goblins
  9 hobgoblins
  11 jackals
  19 kobolds
  11 quokkas
  8 frilled lizards
  A jackal zombie (D:5)
  3 kobold zombies (D:5)
  An orc zombie (D:5)
  2 quokka zombies
  13 rats
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:4)
  8 plants
  A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:3)
  5 tentacles (Shoals:2)
1271 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A golden dragon (Vaults:5)
  the Enchantress (Depths:3)
  A lich (Vaults:5)
  Rupert (Spider:1)
  A tentacled monstrosity (Vaults:5)
  6 titans
  A quicksilver dragon (Vaults:5)
  A sphinx (Vaults:5)
  A tengu reaver (Vaults:5)
  A shadow dragon (Vaults:5)
  Aizul (Spider:3)
  A fire giant (Depths:2)
  2 vault wardens (Vaults:5)
  2 deep elf sorcerers (Vaults:5)
  Louise (Spider:1)
  4 ghost moths (Spider:4)
  3 ironheart preservers
  2 emperor scorpions (Spider:4)
  3 spriggan defenders
  A war gargoyle (Vaults:5)
  3 stone giants
  A deep elf elementalist (Vaults:5)
  5 very ugly things
  3 entropy weavers
  A dire elephant (Lair:6)
  A deep elf annihilator (Vaults:2)
  Snorg (D:13)
  A deep elf death mage (Vaults:4)
  2 merfolk javelineers (Shoals:4)
  4 ettins
  2 yaktaur captains (Vaults:5)
  3 fire dragons
  3 rakshasas
  A deep elf high priest (Vaults:5)
  4 vault guards
  2 great orbs of eyes
  3 ice dragons
  3 hydras
  A spriggan air mage (Depths:3)
  2 merfolk avatars (Shoals:3)
  A catoblepas (Lair:6)
  An anaconda (Lair:6)
  3 centaur warriors
  2 merfolk aquamancers
  7 two-headed ogres
  2 satyrs
  A death knight (D:13)
  3 ogre magi
  A queen ant (Spider:1)
  A deep troll shaman (Depths:3)
  3 death yaks
  4 sea snakes
  An unseen horror (Vaults:1)
  5 deep trolls
  A flayed ghost (Vaults:5)
  A shadow dragon zombie (Depths:2)
  2 glowing orange brains
  A glowing orange brain (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  4 ironbrand convokers
  3 necromancers
  A deep elf archer (Vaults:3)
  14 ugly things
  12 orb spiders
  2 deep elf magi (D:15)
  2 oklob plants (Lair:5)
  14 wolf spiders
  A shining eye (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  2 cyclopes
  9 fauns
  A stone giant zombie (Depths:2)
  2 tengu skeletons (Depths:2)
  2 merfolk sirens (Shoals:4)
  A manticore (Shoals:3)
  A stone giant skeleton (Depths:2)
  A black mamba (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  A water nymph (Shoals:4)
  A centaur zombie (D:11)
  An orange demon (Abyss:3)
  5 vault sentinels
  A rime drake (Lair:6)
  9 yaktaurs
  5 demonic crawlers
  2 trolls (shapeshifter)
  7 merfolk
  A meliai (D:15)
  A polar bear (Lair:4)
  34 jumping spiders
  6 slime creatures
  A spriggan zombie (Depths:2)
  6 blink frogs
  2 jumping spiders (shapeshifter)
  A raiju (Abyss:3)
  2 hippogriffs
  A snapping turtle (Shoals:3)
  A redback (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  A spriggan (Depths:3)
  13 tarantellas
  A wyvern (D:15)
  54 redbacks
  A vampire (D:11)
  9 water elementals
  A basilisk (Lair:6)
  17 yaks
  5 wraiths (Lair:4)
  2 hogs (D:13)
  A warg (D:11)
  A human zombie (Depths:2)
  3 acid dragons
  5 soldier ants (Spider:1)
  A porcupine (Lair:3)
  A water moccasin (Lair:5)
  12 orc warriors
  A black bear (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 eyes of draining
  An ice beast (D:14)
  4 ogres
  2 wolves
  14 centaurs
  A big kobold (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  3 bullfrogs
  A killer bee (D:11)
  An electric eel (D:15)
  A quasit (D:11)
  2 hounds (D:11)
  3 jellies
  7 orc priests
  6 worker ants
  5 orc wizards
  An adder (D:11)
  An ufetubus (Vaults:4)
  An ooze (Lair:6)
  29 orcs
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:4)
  12 plants
508 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  3 vault guards (Vaults:5)
  A deep troll shaman (Depths:2)
  A shadow wraith (Vaults:2)
  2 humans (D:13)
  A fire vortex (D:15)
  7 fungi
  A lurking horror (Abyss:3)
  8 plants
  A starspawn tentacle (Abyss:3)
  12 tentacles (Shoals:2)
37 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1816 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Kramin the Gnoll Transmuter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 17/17 MP: 6/6
   156 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
   156 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 23/23 MP: 5/7
   171 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
   217 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
   372 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
   372 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
   374 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
   578 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes
   623 | D:2      | Noticed a dagger
   623 | D:2      | Noticed a hand axe
   624 | D:2      | Found a hide-covered altar of Uskayaw.
   646 | D:2      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
   663 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Long Blades
   663 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
   663 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 28/28 MP: 9/9
   684 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Axes
   684 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Earth Magic
   704 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
   709 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form
   901 | D:2      | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
   945 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 34/34 MP: 7/11
   959 | D:2      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
   980 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
  1009 | D:2      | Became a worshipper of Ashenzari the Shackled
  1626 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Slings
  1626 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  1681 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  1756 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 39/39 MP: 8/12
  1775 | D:3      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  1945 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  1945 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  1945 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
  1968 | D:3      | Noticed Jessica
  1973 | D:3      | Killed Jessica
  1973 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
  1973 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
  2077 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  2083 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  2089 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  2089 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Staves
  2089 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Crossbows
  2089 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  2089 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 47/47 MP: 10/13
  2250 | D:4      | Reached * piety under Ashenzari
  2333 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
  2464 | D:4      | Noticed Edmund
  2476 | D:4      | Killed Edmund
  2476 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  2476 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 52/52 MP: 10/15
  2785 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3136 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Bows
  3175 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 57/58 MP: 13/16
  3512 | D:6      | Learned a level 5 spell: Blade Hands
  3760 | D:5      | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Lightning Spire
  3973 | D:6      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  4753 | D:7      | Noticed a hippogriff
  4758 | D:7      | Noticed a spriggan baker
  4768 | D:7      | Killed a hippogriff
  4768 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 43/65 MP: 15/17
  4775 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  5054 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5063 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5607 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  5868 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Slings
  6051 | D:8      | Reached ** piety under Ashenzari
  6153 | D:8      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  6206 | D:8      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  6263 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
  6263 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Necromancy
  6277 | D:8      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  6413 | D:8      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  6549 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 69/73 MP: 15/19
  6629 | D:9      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  6660 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6680 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Summonings
  7006 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  7029 | D:9      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  7082 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  7089 | D:9      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  7230 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Crossbows
  7293 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7303 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  7303 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
  7303 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
  7303 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
  7303 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  7403 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
  7458 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  7458 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
  7552 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  7559 | D:10     | Noticed Joseph
  7585 | D:10     | Killed Joseph
  7585 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  7585 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
  7585 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  7585 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
  7598 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
  7608 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Staves
  7613 | D:10     | Noticed Harold
  7646 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic
  7649 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
  7715 | D:10     | Killed Harold
  7715 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Throwing
  7715 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  7745 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7749 | D:10     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
  7850 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 80/80 MP: 21/21
  7856 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
  8173 | D:10     | Noticed Urug
  8192 | D:10     | HP: 5/80 [Urug/javelin (17)]
  8193 | D:10     | Killed Urug
  8193 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Bows
  8522 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre
  8539 | D:10     | Noticed Maurice
  8548 | D:10     | Killed Maurice
  8772 | D:10     | Killed a brown ugly thing
  8988 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9824 | Lair:2   | Reached *** piety under Ashenzari
 10311 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 86/87 MP: 17/23
 10667 | Lair:2   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 10926 | Lair:3   | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
 11865 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 11910 | Lair:4   | Got the morningstar "Roheap" {drain, rPois rN+ Str+3 SInv}
 11946 | Lair:4   | Identified the +6 morningstar "Roheap" {drain, rPois rN+ Str+3 SInv} (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 11975 | Lair:4   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 12006 | Lair:4   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 12030 | Lair:4   | Noticed Josephine
 12040 | Lair:4   | Killed Josephine
 12262 | Lair:4   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 12270 | Lair:4   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 12641 | Lair:4   | Reached **** piety under Ashenzari
 12804 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 68/95 MP: 19/25
 12939 | Lair:5   | Identified the Compendium of Conjuration
 12966 | Lair:5   | Learned a level 6 spell: Freezing Cloud
 13386 | Lair:5   | Identified the Grimoire of Creative Black Rites
 13860 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 14010 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 14473 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 15245 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
 15250 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 15254 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 15331 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 15346 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 15346 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 104/105 MP: 14/27
 15434 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 15450 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 15593 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 15593 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 15601 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 15611 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 15739 | Lair:6   | Learned a level 6 spell: Death Channel
 16125 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 16295 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 16411 | D:11     | Reached ***** piety under Ashenzari
 16538 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 16640 | Orc:1    | Found Akheoc's Armour Shoppe.
 16825 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 16860 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 17622 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
 17884 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 18111 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Poison Magic
 18140 | Orc:2    | Found Zuleifiwu's Gadget Emporium.
 18140 | Orc:2    | Found Yntabb's Book Emporium.
 18141 | Orc:2    | Found Leoz's Armour Shoppe.
 18141 | Orc:2    | Found Wismi's Weapon Emporium.
 18163 | Orc:2    | Bought a +0 helmet of intelligence for 172 gold pieces
 18174 | Orc:2    | Bought a book of the Sky for 650 gold pieces
 18181 | Orc:2    | Learned a level 6 spell: Deflect Missiles
 18184 | Orc:2    | Bought a book of Transfigurations for 550 gold pieces
 18193 | Orc:2    | Learned a level 6 spell: Statue Form
 18339 | Orc:1    | Identified 2 scrolls of acquirement
 18395 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 18498 | Orc:1    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 18938 | D:12     | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 18957 | D:12     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 113/113 MP: 25/29
 19114 | D:12     | Reached skill level 10 in Crossbows
 19370 | D:13     | Noticed Azrael
 19378 | D:13     | Killed Azrael
 19378 | D:13     | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
 19659 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 19667 | D:13     | Reached skill level 10 in Charms
 19671 | D:13     | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
 19801 | D:13     | Noticed Kirke
 19808 | D:13     | Killed Kirke
 19936 | D:13     | Noticed Snorg
 19945 | D:13     | Killed Snorg
 20496 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades
 20560 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Air Magic
 20714 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
 20737 | D:14     | Reached ****** piety under Ashenzari
 20856 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades
 20856 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Invocations
 21296 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 21299 | D:15     | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 21413 | D:15     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 21519 | D:15     | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
 21750 | D:15     | Reached skill level 10 in Summonings
 21780 | D:15     | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes
 21948 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 22099 | D:15     | Reached skill level 10 in Slings
 22376 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 22519 | Orc:1    | Bought the +4 skin of Zhor {rC+++} for 809 gold pieces
 22519 | Orc:1    | Found the +4 skin of Zhor {rC+++}
 22783 | Spider:1 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 118/121 MP: 27/30
 22877 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Polearms
 22974 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
 23096 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Necromancy
 23157 | Spider:1 | Noticed Louise
 23166 | Spider:1 | Killed Louise
 23175 | Spider:1 | Noticed Rupert
 23181 | Spider:1 | Killed Rupert
 23181 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 23538 | Spider:1 | Noticed Nikola
 23543 | Spider:1 | Killed Nikola
 23543 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Ice Magic
 24223 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 24251 | Spider:2 | Noticed Roxanne
 24493 | Spider:2 | Killed Roxanne
 24493 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Bows
 24768 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Staves
 25348 | Spider:3 | Noticed Aizul
 25352 | Spider:3 | Noticed Arachne
 25365 | Spider:3 | Killed Arachne
 25380 | Spider:3 | Killed Aizul
 25435 | Spider:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 25626 | Spider:3 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 129/129 MP: 32/32
 25918 | Spider:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Spider Nest
 26026 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Fire Magic
 26037 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Throwing
 26280 | Spider:4 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot
 26601 | Spider:4 | Noticed aurelian's ghost (adept HOSu)
 26625 | Spider:4 | Killed aurelian's ghost
 26795 | Lair:2   | Identified the +8 arbalest of the Extremely Mad {velocity, *Corrode +Fly rPois Dex+5} (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 26795 | Lair:2   | Identified the cursed +0 hunting sling of Articulation {velocity, *Corrode rF+ Str-2 Dex+7} (You acquired it on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)
 26953 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 26986 | Vaults:1 | Noticed an Executioner
 27004 | Vaults:1 | Cast into level 3 of the Abyss (a deep elf sorcerer)
 27004 | Abyss:3  | Identified the +7 broad axe "Killer Bee's Bane" {elec, MP-9 Int+7}
 27009 | Abyss:3  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 27063 | Abyss:3  | Noticed an Executioner
 27075 | Abyss:3  | Killed an Executioner
 27156 | Abyss:3  | Noticed a tentacled starspawn
 27160 | Abyss:3  | Killed a tentacled starspawn
 27164 | Vaults:1 | Escaped the Abyss
 27173 | Vaults:1 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 138/138 MP: 34/34
 27189 | Vaults:1 | Noticed a Tzitzimitl
 28092 | Vaults:1 | Cast into level 2 of the Abyss (a wizard)
 28104 | Abyss:2  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 28132 | Abyss:2  | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 28145 | Vaults:1 | Escaped the Abyss
 28919 | Vaults:2 | Paralysed by an ogre mage for 6 turns
 29912 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 146/146 MP: 21/35
 29950 | Vaults:3 | Identified the cursed +5 hunting sling of Excruciating Pain {venom, rPois rC+} (You acquired it on level 3 of the Vaults)
 30015 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Boris
 30584 | Vaults:3 | Killed Boris
 30732 | Vaults:3 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 31474 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Sojobo
 31491 | Vaults:4 | Killed Sojobo
 31643 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 153/154 MP: 25/37
 32259 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 32264 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 32265 | Vaults:5 | Noticed a Brimstone Fiend
 32279 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 32685 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 32703 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 32984 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +1 pair of gloves "Maargh" {Int+5}
 33198 | Vaults:5 | Noticed a lich
 33201 | Vaults:5 | Killed a lich
 33201 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 161/161 MP: 27/39
 33309 | Vaults:5 | Noticed a golden dragon
 33324 | Vaults:5 | Killed a golden dragon
 33480 | Vaults:5 | Identified the cursed +3 pair of gloves "Loqaffe" {rElec rPois rC+ MR-} (You acquired it on level 5 of the Vaults)
 33652 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 34068 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +6 chain mail "Sutozih" {Regen+ Dex+4 Slay+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)
 34068 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +1 chain mail "Orucucue" {rElec Regen+ Int-5 Stlth+}
 34402 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 34612 | Shoals:1 | Identified the cursed +2 hunting sling "Dolubuz" {venom, rF+ rN+ Dex+2}
 35100 | Shoals:2 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 35754 | Shoals:2 | Identified the +3 chain mail "Heexkel" {rC+++ Int-2 Dex-4 Stlth+}
 35959 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Mara
 35965 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Kramin's illusion
 35974 | Shoals:3 | Killed Mara
 36061 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Polyphemus
 36075 | Shoals:3 | Killed Polyphemus
 36770 | Shoals:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Shoals
 36770 | Shoals:4 | Found Wetem's Food Emporium.
 36773 | Shoals:4 | Found Foofot's Assorted Antiques.
 36829 | Shoals:4 | Noticed Ilsuiw
 36857 | Shoals:4 | Killed Ilsuiw
 37163 | Shoals:4 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 37285 | Shoals:4 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 170/170 MP: 40/40
 37329 | Shoals:4 | Found Bycheusm's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 37733 | Shoals:4 | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon for 292 gold pieces
 38251 | Orc:1    | Identified the cursed +0 hunting sling of Articulation {velocity, *Corrode rF+ Str-2 Dex+7} (You acquired it on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)
 38346 | Orc:2    | Bought a Necronomicon for 1104 gold pieces
 38596 | D:15     | Learned a level 8 spell: Infestation
 38639 | D:15     | Learned a level 8 spell: Ignition
 39574 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 39574 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 39581 | Depths:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Transmutations
 39700 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 40234 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 40238 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell.
 40561 | Depths:2 | Found Hiedosen's Antique Weapon Shop.
 40689 | Depths:2 | Found Jacont's Jewellery Boutique.
 40733 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat
 40741 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Maces & Flails
 40950 | Depths:2 | Found Noolafod's Jewellery Shoppe.
 41039 | Depths:2 | Identified the +1 ring mail "Niycues" {rElec rC- MP-9 Stlth+}
 41339 | Depths:3 | Noticed the Enchantress
 41342 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 41351 | Depths:3 | Killed the Enchantress
 41351 | Depths:3 | Identified the +0 faerie dragon scales {rCorr Str+3} (You took it off the Enchantress on level 3 of the Depths)
 41364 | Depths:3 | Found a transporter.
 41371 | Depths:3 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 41940 | Depths:4 | Upgraded the game from 0.21-a0-317-gd0d0d88 to 0.21-a0-320-gefad53e

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Maces & Flails |  1        2     3  4     5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13 14    15 | 15.0
Translocations |     1        2        3  4  5     7  8  9 10    11 12    13    14 | 14.4
Stealth        |     1           2     4     5     6  8  9    10 11 12    13       | 13.7
Armour         |     1  2           3     4  5  6     7  8  9 10    11 12    13 14 | 14.0
Spellcasting   |     5                    6     7  8  9 10    11 12    13 14    15 | 15.0
Poison Magic   |     1        2     3        5  7     8 10    11 12       13 14    | 14.4
Long Blades    |     1        2        3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13    14 | 14.3
Evocations     |     1              2  4     5  6  7  8  9    10 11    12 13       | 13.7
Axes           |        1  2        3     4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11    12 13    14    | 14.6
Earth Magic    |        1     2        3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13    14 | 14.1
Short Blades   |        1     2        3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13 14    | 14.4
Throwing       |           1        2  3  4  5     6  7  8  9    10 11    12 13    | 13.5
Slings         |           1     2  3  4  5  6  7     8  9 10    11 12    13 14    | 14.3
Invocations    |           1        2  3  4  5  7     8  9 10 11    12 13    14    | 14.3
Dodging        |           5           6  7     8  9    10    11 12    13 14       | 14.8
Conjurations   |              2     3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13    14    | 14.9
Charms         |              1  2     3  5  6  7     8  9 10 11    12    13    14 | 14.3
Transmutations |              5        6  7     8  9 10       11 12    13 14    15 | 15.4
Polearms       |              2     3     4  5  6  7  8  9    10 11    12    13    | 13.8
Necromancy     |              1     2  4  5  6     7  8     9 10    11    12 13    | 13.7
Air Magic      |              1  2     3  4  5  6  8     9 10    11    12    13 14 | 14.0
Fighting       |              3        4     5     6  8  9    10 11    12    13    | 13.9
Staves         |              1        3  4  5  6  7  8     9 10    11 12    13    | 13.7
Crossbows      |              1     2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12    13    14    | 14.6
Shields        |              1     2  3  4  5  6  8  9 10    11    12    13    14 | 14.1
Fire Magic     |              2           3  4  5  6  7  8     9 10 11 12    13    | 13.5
Summonings     |                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8    10    11 12       13 14 | 14.0
Hexes          |                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7     8 10    11 12    13    14 | 14.1
Unarmed Combat |                    7     8        9 10 11    12    13    14    15 | 15.1
Ice Magic      |                    2  3  4  5  6  7  8     9 10    11 12    13 14 | 14.0
Bows           |                    1  2  3  4  5  7  8     9 10 11    12    13    | 13.9

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    82 |    91 |   399 |   507 |       |     7 |       |       ||  1086
       Punch             |     3 |       |     6 |    10 |     3 |       |       |       ||    22
       Kick              |     5 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     5
       Headbutt          |     4 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     4
       Bite              |     1 |     6 |     5 |    31 |   158 |   110 |    89 |    39 ||   439
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |    82 |   634 |       |       |       ||   716
       Eveningstar       |       |       |       |       |   485 |   903 |   853 |    25 ||  2266
       Demon blade       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   209 ||   209
Throw: Throwing net      |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |       ||     3
 Cast: Beastly Appendage |    15 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    15
       Spider Form       |     2 |    14 |    32 |    17 |       |       |       |       ||    65
       Blade Hands       |       |       |       |    27 |     1 |       |       |       ||    28
       Summon Lightning  |       |       |       |    10 |    35 |       |       |       ||    45
       Sticks to Snakes  |       |       |       |    10 |     2 |       |       |       ||    12
       Freezing Cloud    |       |       |       |       |    23 |    10 |    32 |       ||    65
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |    20 |    25 |    26 |    10 ||    81
       Death Channel     |       |       |       |       |    47 |    51 |    57 |    19 ||   174
       Statue Form       |       |       |       |       |    15 |    30 |    32 |     8 ||    85
       Deflect Missiles  |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |     7 |       ||    11
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |       |       |    10 |     4 |     2 ||    16
       Infestation       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    16 ||    16
       Ignition          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     7 ||     7
Invok: Curse Item        |       |       |       |     3 |     5 |     1 |     3 |     1 ||    13
 Abil: End Transformatio |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     2 |       |       |     3 |       ||     5
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |     6 |     3 |    33 |     4 |     9 |     6 ||    61
       Potion            |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       |     1 |       ||     3
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     2 |     2 |     6 |    12 |    12 |    16 |     6 ||    57
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |     5 |    29 |    35 |    23 |    10 ||   103
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     1 |       ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |       |     6 |    17 |    28 |    58 |    42 |    43 |    17 ||   211
       Royal jelly       |       |       |     1 |       |     4 |     6 |     2 |     5 ||    18
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     2 |       ||     4
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Armor: Robe              |    15 |     4 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    19
       Skin              |       |     4 |    55 |    24 |    61 |   348 |   279 |    28 ||   799
       Leather armour    |       |     6 |    14 |       |       |       |       |       ||    20
       Ring mail         |       |       |    40 |   140 |   288 |       |       |       ||   468
       Animal skin       |       |       |       |       |     2 |    70 |    54 |    32 ||   158
Dodge: Dodged            |    60 |    63 |   324 |   445 |   698 |   786 |   716 |   174 ||  3266
       Deflected         |       |       |       |       |     8 |    30 |    54 |    14 ||   106
Block: Shield            |       |       |       |       |   814 |   713 |   641 |    28 ||  2196
       Buckler           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    60 ||    60
Rpst.: Demon blade       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    31 ||    31

Table legend:
 A = Spawn XP
 B = Non-spawn XP
 C = Spawn XP percentage of total XP
 D = Spawn monster count
 E = Non-spawn monster count
 F = Spawn count percentage of total count
 G = Total turns spent on level

                 A         B        C        D         E        F        G   
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
      Total |   13350 |  669508 |   2.0 |      25 |    1730 |   1.4 |   41940
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
        D:1 |       0 |      32 |   0.0 |       0 |      20 |   0.0 |     609
        D:2 |       0 |     105 |   0.0 |       0 |      22 |   0.0 |     849
        D:3 |       0 |     123 |   0.0 |       0 |      12 |   0.0 |     705
        D:4 |       0 |     380 |   0.0 |       0 |       9 |   0.0 |     771
        D:5 |       0 |     720 |   0.0 |       0 |      28 |   0.0 |     804
        D:6 |       0 |     852 |   0.0 |       0 |      23 |   0.0 |     943
        D:7 |       0 |    1160 |   0.0 |       0 |      21 |   0.0 |     889
        D:8 |       0 |    1164 |   0.0 |       0 |      13 |   0.0 |     970
        D:9 |       0 |    2310 |   0.0 |       0 |      35 |   0.0 |    1541
       D:10 |       0 |    6597 |   0.0 |       0 |      32 |   0.0 |    1239
       D:11 |       0 |    5570 |   0.0 |       0 |      50 |   0.0 |     845
       D:12 |       0 |    5647 |   0.0 |       0 |      25 |   0.0 |     631
       D:13 |       0 |   17983 |   0.0 |       0 |      51 |   0.0 |    1320
       D:14 |       0 |    8231 |   0.0 |       0 |      28 |   0.0 |     970
       D:15 |       0 |   12360 |   0.0 |       0 |      48 |   0.0 |    1118
     Lair:1 |       0 |    2607 |   0.0 |       0 |      45 |   0.0 |     953
     Lair:2 |       0 |    4764 |   0.0 |       0 |      24 |   0.0 |    1436
     Lair:3 |       0 |    3041 |   0.0 |       0 |      19 |   0.0 |     974
     Lair:4 |       0 |    8045 |   0.0 |       0 |      31 |   0.0 |    1071
     Lair:5 |       0 |    7654 |   0.0 |       0 |      26 |   0.0 |    1032
     Lair:6 |       0 |   19892 |   0.0 |       0 |      62 |   0.0 |    1971
   Shoals:1 |       0 |    8777 |   0.0 |       0 |      22 |   0.0 |     765
   Shoals:2 |       0 |   14672 |   0.0 |       0 |      34 |   0.0 |    1052
   Shoals:3 |       0 |   23185 |   0.0 |       0 |      37 |   0.0 |     902
   Shoals:4 |       0 |   29240 |   0.0 |       0 |      47 |   0.0 |     979
   Spider:1 |       0 |   24053 |   0.0 |       0 |      79 |   0.0 |    1342
   Spider:2 |       0 |   14475 |   0.0 |       0 |      48 |   0.0 |    1377
   Spider:3 |       0 |   20343 |   0.0 |       0 |      71 |   0.0 |     616
   Spider:4 |       0 |   40912 |   0.0 |       0 |     115 |   0.0 |     809
      Orc:1 |       0 |    4294 |   0.0 |       0 |      73 |   0.0 |     879
      Orc:2 |       0 |   13706 |   0.0 |       0 |      89 |   0.0 |    1607
   Vaults:1 |    1051 |   35764 |   2.9 |       2 |      68 |   2.9 |    1409
   Vaults:2 |       0 |   35184 |   0.0 |       0 |      74 |   0.0 |    1514
   Vaults:3 |       0 |   59772 |   0.0 |       0 |      77 |   0.0 |    1386
   Vaults:4 |       0 |   48423 |   0.0 |       0 |      56 |   0.0 |    1503
   Vaults:5 |       0 |  103638 |   0.0 |       0 |      99 |   0.0 |    1578
   Depths:1 |       0 |   28509 |   0.0 |       0 |      38 |   0.0 |     842
   Depths:2 |       0 |   26174 |   0.0 |       0 |      42 |   0.0 |     740
   Depths:3 |       0 |   28286 |   0.0 |       0 |      36 |   0.0 |     765
   Depths:4 |       0 |     864 |   0.0 |       0 |       1 |   0.0 |      19
    Abyss:2 |     205 |       0 | 100.0 |       1 |       0 | 100.0 |      53
    Abyss:3 |   12094 |       0 | 100.0 |      22 |       0 | 100.0 |     160
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------



The start is very strong, as your starting skill points in UC/Tm get amplified a lot by the +8. The great thing about Tm is while later your UC skill will not be up to par, you have no reason to stick to UC anyway, you can switch to a weapon when you find a nice one and pick up other spells you find. Bladehands does good damage at low UC anyway if you haven't found a decent weapon for lair. I went Ash to amplify the +8's even more, and it's been working well. I have level 8 spells online already.

In terms of tweaks I would suggest that starting skill points from background either reduced or also split evenly over all skills (I prefer the latter). You have this massive amount of power on D:1 which then fades off to a fairly normal char by lair, so maybe +8 would be ok if the strong start is toned down a bit.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 538

Joined: Sunday, 9th June 2013, 17:13

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 04:29

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

mikee wrote:
Floodkiller wrote:but gammafunk, elliptic, mikee and others pitched in to put together another version. It's pretty close to what one of my backup plans were, so it's got my approval.

So this is literally just my idea. =P I told elliptic how I thought we could fix gnolls and he said something like, that sounds potentially awful. The next day I'm hearing about elliptic's brilliant idea to fix gnolls and it's just what I'd said to him! That being said, ideas are cheap and I put in zero actual work.


I doubt this version of events! elliptic confirmed that the idea was yours but never said it was bad. And if you'd described it to me in with all the nice specifics and suggestions elliptic gave, you'd have gotten more credit.

...and come to think of it mikee, where is my "Zombie Hands" spell proposal you promised?

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Hellmonk

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3159

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 05:07

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

GnWz is extremely powerful early with those 8 MP at XL 1, all spells are easily castable. Then in Lair it becomes much weaker, I like it, unusual power curve. Also it is unusual to be able to stab confused monsters, normally I don't train Stealth and Short Blades high that early.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 147

Joined: Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 09:51

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 12:12

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

i like the feel of this version more than the others, but it's likely a bit too strong, maybe try it with +6 or +7 apts. running a gnvm^ash currently with two runes, and so far i've never felt limited by skills at all, i can just use whatever i find as if i've trained for it from the start. i guess if you usually rush to high level spells or large weapon mindelay you'd have to adjust. another way to go would be to lower starting attributes, like go back to 7/7/7 but without the lock.

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Majang

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 12:57

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I think the novelty of a character that has huge skills is going to wear off. Or it will be heavily rebalanced in a way that loses that fresh feel. Then you'll be left with a species where characters gravitate even more strongly toward the same place at the end of the game than they normally do in crawl.

It's weird how essentially the same concept has been out there since May (see upthread) but it has to come out of the core of institutional crawl discourse to go anywhere and the story goes from "omg, that is too radical I would quit crawl if they decided to do that" to "omg, this is awesome guys, look at this new gnoll concept."

The reality is that this is a very conservative take on the xl-based boost. I get the desire to minimize the interaction with Ashenzari, but Ashenzari should not use skill points as the basis of the skill boost either. Hit two birds with one stone: Make the Ash boosts give an easy to understand skill level, not skill point, boost (this would be a major usability improvement, think passive heroism that scales with whatever ash factors, but with easy to predict integer maximum values) and do the same with gnolls, so you're not trying to use the same coarse parameter to encapsulate both the skill growth rate and the magnitude of starting skills.

edit: A commit from this morning seems to bring things closer to what I had in mind, if I understand what's going on there correctly. That seems good.
edit 2: Actually, the commit seems to address issues with having super high aptitudes and the weird way skill points are allocated, so not good.
Last edited by watertreatmentRL on Saturday, 30th September 2017, 18:21, edited 2 times in total.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

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duvessa, yesno

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1707

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 13:50

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

This soundded neat so I rolled up a nuGnoll on CAO. I'm finding that the skills are not all ascending equally, but it doesn't seem to be like autotraining because my long blades for instance has gone up a level, but polearms is still 0, and in the interim I've wielded a club and a hand axe. I get that I cannot choose where my skill points go, but there seems to be a black box doing the choosing instead. How are SP allocated?
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Fingolfin

Halls Hopper

Posts: 67

Joined: Sunday, 26th April 2015, 22:16

Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 18:14

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I roll up a Gnoll Wizard because I figured the cross-the-board skilling would be awesome with the starter book. Wasn't wrong. Book carried him to Lair. Found some great gear. That plus generous Oka gifts is making everything feel super easy. (Oka's gifted me like three sets of +8 arti plate...) Being able to use whatever I find makes play less tedious. Too bad the food clock is still in the game. I'd love to see this guy ported over to Hellcrawl. ;)

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-316-g7453ecb (tiles) character file.

Rover the Thaumaturge (Gnoll Wizard)               Turns: 29171, Time: 02:09:44

Health: 115/115    AC: 34    Str: 13    XL:     15   Next: 31%
Magic:  39/39      EV: 12    Int: 22    God:    Okawaru [*****.]
Gold:   1490       SH:  3    Dex: 21    Spells: 19/37 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis .   a - +3 shortbow
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   V - +8 shadow dragon scales of Inaction {rF+ MP+9 Str-2 Dex+8 Stlth++++}
rPois    +         Spirit   .   C - +1 helmet
rElec    .         Reflect  +   n - +0 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   D - +0 pair of gloves of Viecsiqe {rPois Str-2 Slay+4}
MR       +....                  N - +0 pair of boots {Stlth+}
Stlth    +++++++...             z - +3 amulet of reflection
HPRegen  0.29/turn              u - +5 ring of protection
MPRegen  0.26/turn              i - +2 ring of strength

@: no status effects
A: distributed training, fangs 1, strong nose
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion


You are on level 13 of the Dungeon.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 20 of its levels.
You have also visited: Bailey.

You have collected 1490 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +3 shortbow (weapon)
   (You took it off a centaur on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 b - the +8 quarterstaff of the Heavens {venom, +Blink Str+3 SInv}
   (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It poisons the flesh of those it strikes.
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It lets you see invisible.
   It lets you blink.
 w - the +9 sword of Zonguldrok {reap}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   If a monster killed with it leaves a corpse in good enough shape, the corpse
   will be animated as a zombie friendly to the killer.
 U - the +1 arbalest "Giant's Curse" {velocity, rElec Int+4}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Any bolt fired from it inflicts extra damage.
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It insulates you from electricity.
Missiles
 e - 179 arrows (quivered)
 h - 636 stones
 y - 81 bolts
Armour
 n - a +0 cloak (worn)
   (You took it off Crazy Yiuf on level 2 of the Dungeon)
 C - a +1 helmet (worn)
   (You took it off Robin on level 2 of the Dungeon)
 D - the +0 pair of gloves of Viecsiqe (worn) {rPois Str-2 Slay+4}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+4).
   It protects you from poison.
 N - a +0 pair of boots of stealth (worn)
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 V - the +8 shadow dragon scales of Inaction (worn) {rF+ MP+9 Str-2 Dex+8 Stlth++++}
   (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your dexterity (+8).
   It protects you from fire.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
   It makes you much more stealthy.
 Z - the +4 ring mail of Zatoz {rC+ rCorr}
   (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
Jewellery
 i - a +2 ring of strength (right hand)
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 u - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
 z - a +3 amulet of reflection (around neck)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
Wands
 f - a wand of paralysis (?/24)
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 v - a wand of scattershot (5/9)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 H - a wand of paralysis (?/24)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 I - a wand of lightning (?/15)
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 O - a wand of confusion (?/48)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 R - a wand of disintegration (?/24)
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 W - a wand of acid (?/15)
   (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)
Scrolls
 c - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 j - 7 scrolls of remove curse
 o - 6 scrolls of teleportation
 s - a scroll labeled BEUNUO HILIOKK
 t - 2 scrolls of identify
 G - 3 scrolls of blinking
 K - a scroll labeled ZUUMIX IFOYNAH
 Q - a scroll of enchant armour
Potions
 d - 5 potions of might
 g - a metallic blue potion
 m - 7 potions of curing
 p - 4 potions of ambrosia
 q - 4 potions of lignification
 r - 3 potions of berserk rage
 E - 5 potions of haste
 F - a red potion
 J - 6 potions of brilliance
 M - 4 potions of flight
Books
 A - a book of Necromancy
   (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
Miscellaneous
 x - a sack of spiders
 B - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 S - a lightning rod (4/4)
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
Comestibles
 k - 13 bread rations
 l - 25 fruits
 L - 5 chunks of flesh
 P - a royal jelly
 T - 2 meat rations


   Skills:
 + Level 9.8 Fighting
 + Level 9.0 Short Blades
 + Level 9.8 Long Blades
 + Level 9.7 Axes
 + Level 8.8 Maces & Flails
 + Level 9.3 Polearms
 + Level 8.5 Staves
 + Level 9.6 Slings
 + Level 9.2 Bows
 + Level 10.3 Crossbows
 + Level 9.0 Throwing
 + Level 9.6 Armour
 + Level 10.5 Dodging
 + Level 10.1 Stealth
   Level 0.0 Stabbing
 + Level 9.4 Shields
   Level 0.0 Traps
 + Level 8.8 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 11.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.8 Conjurations
 + Level 9.3 Hexes
 + Level 9.6 Charms
 + Level 9.6 Summonings
 + Level 9.1 Necromancy
 + Level 10.6 Translocations
 + Level 8.2 Transmutations
 + Level 10.0 Fire Magic
 + Level 10.3 Ice Magic
 + Level 9.4 Air Magic
 + Level 9.5 Earth Magic
 + Level 9.1 Poison Magic
 + Level 10.4 Invocations
 + Level 10.2 Evocations


You have 19 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
b - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ######..     4%          3    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ######..     5%          3    None
d - Cause Fear            Hex            ######....   19%         4    None
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ######....   5%          3    None
s - Call Imp              Summ           ######..     2%          2    None
x - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (13/15)            Temple (1/1) D:5            Lair (6/6) D:8
  Swamp (0/4) Lair:2        Snake (0/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (0/2) D:9         
Vaults: D:13-14     


Update: this guy feels very, very powerful. More than most of my runners who've cleared the Lair branches. Seriously, I was playing like a moron in Swamp and he couldn't die. He's got a ton of options between spells, weapons, and evocables. The only real decisions I've had to make are what to do with stat upgrades. Otherwise I just grab whatever goodies cross my path and smash the dungeon without worrying about it. I guess he's supposed to have a harder time later in U when he can't get skills above 14? Maybe?

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-316-g7453ecb (tiles) character file.

Rover the Thaumaturge (Gnoll Wizard)               Turns: 47138, Time: 04:18:51

Health: 147/147    AC: 42    Str: 19    XL:     19   Next: 93%
Magic:  41/41      EV: 19    Int: 23    God:    Okawaru [******]
Gold:   1629       SH:  3    Dex: 31    Spells: 1/44 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis .   x - +5 triple crossbow (velocity)
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     + . .     Faith    .   V - +8 shadow dragon scales of Inaction {rF+ MP+9 Str-2 Dex+8 Stlth++++}
rPois    +         Spirit   .   r - +4 helmet "Mumiqu" {*Corrode MR+++ Dex+8 Stlth-}
rElec    .         Reflect  +   g - +2 cloak {rPois}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   y - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
MR       +++++                  v - +0 pair of boots of Wacedgha {+Fly rN+ Stlth+} (curse)
Stlth    +++++++...             z - +3 amulet of reflection
HPRegen  0.34/turn              u - +5 ring of protection
MPRegen  0.27/turn              i - +2 ring of strength

@: no status effects
A: distributed training, claws 1, fangs 1, agile 1, low mp 1, magic resistance
1, strong nose
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, serpentine
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight


You are on level 2 of the Orcish Mines.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 32 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey.

You have collected 3376 gold pieces.
You have spent 1747 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +3 shortbow of flaming
   (You took it off a salamander on level 2 of the Snake Pit)
 b - a +7 lajatang of electrocution
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 x - a +5 triple crossbow of velocity (weapon)
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 3 of the Snake Pit)
Missiles
 e - 547 arrows
 t - 144 bolts (quivered)
Armour
 g - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 r - the +4 helmet "Mumiqu" (worn) {*Corrode MR+++ Dex+8 Stlth-}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Snake Pit)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+8).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It may corrode you when you take damage.
   It makes you less stealthy.
 v - the cursed +0 pair of boots of Wacedgha (worn) {+Fly rN+ Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Snake Pit)   
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you fly.
   It makes you more stealthy.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 y - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 Q - a scarf of cloud immunity
   (You found it in a labyrinth)
 V - the +8 shadow dragon scales of Inaction (worn) {rF+ MP+9 Str-2 Dex+8 Stlth++++}
   (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your dexterity (+8).
   It protects you from fire.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
   It makes you much more stealthy.
Jewellery
 i - a +2 ring of strength (right hand)
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
 u - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
 z - a +3 amulet of reflection (around neck)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
Wands
 f - a wand of paralysis (?/24)
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 l - a wand of iceblast (?/15)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Snake Pit)
 C - a wand of acid (?/15)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Swamp)
 J - a wand of scattershot (5/9)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 W - a wand of clouds (4/9)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Swamp)
Scrolls
 c - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
 j - 10 scrolls of remove curse
 k - 3 scrolls of fog
 o - 9 scrolls of teleportation
 A - 2 scrolls of identify
 G - 4 scrolls of blinking
 I - 2 scrolls of fear
Potions
 d - 5 potions of might
 m - 9 potions of curing
 n - 4 potions of invisibility
 p - 4 potions of ambrosia
 E - 6 potions of haste
 F - 3 potions of berserk rage
 H - 6 potions of heal wounds
 Z - 2 potions of agility
Miscellaneous
 B - a lamp of fire
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 O - a fan of gales
   (You found it on level 3 of the Snake Pit)
 S - a lightning rod (4/4)
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)
Comestibles
 T - 38 fruits


   Skills:
 + Level 12.4 Fighting
 + Level 11.4 Short Blades
 + Level 11.9 Long Blades
 + Level 12.1 Axes
 + Level 11.5 Maces & Flails
 + Level 12.0 Polearms
 + Level 11.7 Staves
 + Level 12.3 Slings
 + Level 12.3 Bows
 + Level 12.8 Crossbows
 + Level 12.1 Throwing
 + Level 12.0 Armour
 + Level 13.1 Dodging
 + Level 12.0 Stealth
   Level 0.0 Stabbing
 + Level 12.1 Shields
   Level 0.0 Traps
 + Level 11.8 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 13.2 Spellcasting
 + Level 12.8 Conjurations
 + Level 11.9 Hexes
 + Level 12.4 Charms
 + Level 11.9 Summonings
 + Level 12.1 Necromancy
 + Level 12.8 Translocations
 + Level 10.9 Transmutations
 + Level 12.2 Fire Magic
 + Level 12.8 Ice Magic
 + Level 12.3 Air Magic
 + Level 12.3 Earth Magic
 + Level 11.9 Poison Magic
 + Level 12.3 Invocations
 + Level 13.2 Evocations


You have one spell level left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         1%          1    None
b - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ######..     1%          3    None
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ######..     1%          3    None
d - Cause Fear            Hex            ######....   1%          4    None
e - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ######..     1%          2    None
f - Call Imp              Summ           ######..     1%          2    None
g - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      ######....   1%          2    None
h - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ######....   1%          2    None
p - Apportation           Tloc           ######       1%          1    None
q - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ######..     1%          2    None
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ######....   1%          3    None
s - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ######..     1%          4    None
u - Dispel Undead         Necr           ######..     5%          5    ###....
x - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
z - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       ######..     1%          3    None
X - Passage of Golubria   Tloc           N/A          1%          4    None
Last edited by Blink Frog on Saturday, 30th September 2017, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 18:59

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but the "incredible" sacrifice of Skill to Ru to put my aptitudes from +8 to +7 feels like I swindled her.

Update YASD, not gnoll related: two shafts, and then an orc band where one party went invisible. I did not pay attention to the details, because orc wizards do that--except it was Erolcha who vanished, then I was banished! I feel like I made a good account of myself, but ended up dying.

As for the gnoll itself, quite fun. Having no control over skill allocation is very effective at encouraging me to respond to whatever the RNG is giving me.
Last edited by MainiacJoe on Saturday, 30th September 2017, 21:18, edited 1 time in total.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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Post Saturday, 30th September 2017, 21:06

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

MainiacJoe wrote:This soundded neat so I rolled up a nuGnoll on CAO. I'm finding that the skills are not all ascending equally, but it doesn't seem to be like autotraining because my long blades for instance has gone up a level, but polearms is still 0, and in the interim I've wielded a club and a hand axe. I get that I cannot choose where my skill points go, but there seems to be a black box doing the choosing instead. How are SP allocated?


Same here, I got 3.3 Earth Magic and 0.8 Fire Magic as a Tm, I don't get why skill allocation is so disparate.
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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 01:46

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

New gnolls are fun, but there are some minor problems:
- Manuals take forever to use, so your inventory fills up with them. The real fix is for manuals to not take up inventory space, for all races.
- Shields are too much of a boring no brainer, both because of the free skill and because your weapon skill tends to be good to min delay for a one hander but terrible to bad for a two hander.

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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 03:05

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

re: weird looking skill allocation, "black box" stuff... I had to look at some of the skill allocation code to do hellcrawl kobolds and the mechanisms there are... surprising. Roughly, and I didn't read this part too carefully, it was just a piece of spaghetti code I bypassed, you get some skill points from killing a monster, some scaling is done, and then it goes through a loop over 10 point increments randomly allocating each according to the weight given in the skill menu to skills that are currently being trained. When you throw in all skills and very high aptitudes into the mix, you get very weird, very noisy behavior, which accounts for the ragged skill distribution people have seen.
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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 13:19

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Fingolfin wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:This soundded neat so I rolled up a nuGnoll on CAO. I'm finding that the skills are not all ascending equally, but it doesn't seem to be like autotraining because my long blades for instance has gone up a level, but polearms is still 0, and in the interim I've wielded a club and a hand axe. I get that I cannot choose where my skill points go, but there seems to be a black box doing the choosing instead. How are SP allocated?


Same here, I got 3.3 Earth Magic and 0.8 Fire Magic as a Tm, I don't get why skill allocation is so disparate.


This has been tweaked a bit since Gn were released and these problems should be gone now. (There were at least two issues: randomness with assigning small amounts of skill points leading to differences over time, and not using the finest grain resolution of skill points leading to big jumps for low values -- everything at 0 would jump from 0 to 0.8 in one go. There was probably also a complex interaction with skill cost increases.)

It's worth noting explicitly that Gn don't start with flat skill points, they get their background+starting weapon boost still, so any differences from that will still be noticeable for a long time.

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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 14:03

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Quick summary of changes:

Gnolls no longer get told about stopping/starting training when dropping objects. They didn't actually stop training the skill, but it did turn off the plus on the skill menu and the messages were annoying.

Gnoll skills will now rise evenly. Before, it would randomly assign any leftover skill points if it wasn't evenly divisible by all your enabled skills, which sometimes led to Gnolls randomly getting one non-starting skill higher than others. Now, it will hold leftover skill points back until it can give every skill an equal amount. There were also a couple commits to improve the backend (as advil said) to make it more granular and avoid dumb things like not getting any skill training until XL 3 under this system (as that would have been the earliest point in which you could train every single skill evenly by one point).

Gnolls no longer train other skills faster if they sacrifice a skill under Ru, and sacrificed skills are no longer trained (along with Stabbing and Traps&Doors). This also re-enables Sacrifice Arcana, but Gnolls do not get extra piety when sacrificing it.

Finally, Trog worship/Beserker starts are re-enabled, as Trog has become more forgiving of the poor Gnolls and their addled minds. Trog will not give penance to Gnolls training magic skills (but still hates memorizing or casting spells, so don't try anything funny).

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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 21:54

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Floodkiller wrote:Quick summary of changes:

Gnolls no longer get told about stopping/starting training when dropping objects. They didn't actually stop training the skill, but it did turn off the plus on the skill menu and the messages were annoying.

Gnoll skills will now rise evenly. Before, it would randomly assign any leftover skill points if it wasn't evenly divisible by all your enabled skills, which sometimes led to Gnolls randomly getting one non-starting skill higher than others. Now, it will hold leftover skill points back until it can give every skill an equal amount. There were also a couple commits to improve the backend (as advil said) to make it more granular and avoid dumb things like not getting any skill training until XL 3 under this system (as that would have been the earliest point in which you could train every single skill evenly by one point).

Gnolls no longer train other skills faster if they sacrifice a skill under Ru, and sacrificed skills are no longer trained (along with Stabbing and Traps&Doors). This also re-enables Sacrifice Arcana, but Gnolls do not get extra piety when sacrificing it.

Finally, Trog worship/Beserker starts are re-enabled, as Trog has become more forgiving of the poor Gnolls and their addled minds. Trog will not give penance to Gnolls training magic skills (but still hates memorizing or casting spells, so don't try anything funny).


I can finally have a pain weapon with Trog! This is a pretty fun iteration of Gnoll, possibly because it is so strong as a race. And being able to use anything without worry about wasting skill XP is pretty cool as well.

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Post Sunday, 1st October 2017, 23:12

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

This may just be me being badplayer, but my latest gnoll really wanted more amnesia than I had as I kept finding books and I think I might want to try Sif next time.

UPDATE: the moral of the story is to be more selective in what you memorize. Sif still is SOOOO SLOOOOOOOW
Last edited by MainiacJoe on Monday, 2nd October 2017, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 05:09

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I suggest to give gnoll racial amnesia ability. Once per 3XLs, for example.
It won't do much early but will be very useful later. Unlike other species it cannot train exclusively spellcasting to get more slots
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 05:16

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Just give them more spell levels per level. That's how I dealt with this issue in the hellcrawl version. I went further and made spell levels independent of spellcasting (which will probably be removed in hellcrawl before long anyway), but that isn't strictly necessary.
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 06:37

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Here's my update: I splatted a good number of GnEE's before getting the first rune, but all because of my own stupidity. I finally decided that Elemental Caster is really not the best way to start a Gnoll, because there is a fairly long plateau phase in mid game where the early spells are too weak to take care of everything, and the higher-level spells are not quite where you'd want them. Of course you could just use weapons, but your stats do not quite support that.

So I started a fighter of Chei, and this guy had very little trouble making it to U5. Although his INT is well in the 30s, he is still a long way off from casting a level 9 spell, so my earlier prediction is proven wrong. I guess even in my other builds there are long phases where I don't train more than three or four skills at once. Like emikaela said above, rushing high-level spells is not something a Gnoll can do. Certainly a Gnoll would benefit from being able to focus his spellcasting skill. Lack of MP and spell hunger bothered me a lot in this game.

But then, it really is fun. I am tanking along with 30+ AC in lightning dragon scales, with huge stealth (thanks to the boots of the Assassin), one-tapping everything with my staff of earth that doesn't wake up before I reach it, and one-shotting everything with Iron Shot that does.

This brings me to the main benefit of this Gnoll manifestation. If you live long enough to make it to the Vaults, you can try out all these things that you have not been able to try before because you didn't want to risk the skills investment. Now everybody can find out how awesome Bolt of Magma really is, or fighting with an elemental staff. I now finally did try out Summon Lightning Spire and really do like it, as it is so much nicer than other kinds of allies. So I'm sure I will play a few more games with this to see what else this game has on offer, because it all comes practically for free. And this Gnoll screams at me to be taken into the extended game.

But all this means that I get the feeling this Gnoll is really too good to be true. These aptitudes, without ceiling and with these favourable stats - if I were to design this game, I wouldn't let it stand. Something probably needs to happen to get this character down to earth again. All newbies will probably just take this species and never have to learn anything about skill training to get their first win. It shouldn't be that easy.
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 07:15

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Majang wrote:But all this means that I get the feeling this Gnoll is really too good to be true. These aptitudes, without ceiling and with these favourable stats - if I were to design this game, I wouldn't let it stand. Something probably needs to happen to get this character down to earth again. All newbies will probably just take this species and never have to learn anything about skill training to get their first win. It shouldn't be that easy.


Why? Is it really stronger than MiBe who trains nothing but weapon/fighting/armour/dodging all game? Even if it is, what is wrong with adding the strongest species (assuming there is nothing wrong with adding the weakest species like Barachi) ? Gnoll provides unique experience, changes value of many gods, spells, shield, 2h weapon, its versatility is awesome. I like that new players can learn tactics while completely ignoring skill training because autotraining is pretty far from optimal as we know, especially for casting characters.
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 07:34

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I wouldn't mind if Gnolls stay as they are. But I can't believe that they will. Maybe they will if developers allow a species that provides undiluted and unmitigated fun.
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 13:01

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Without reading the comments above, the new gnolls are stronger than even the first iteration. This also means two things: they're fun to play as and they should be moved to "Easy" column in race selection.

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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 14:02

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I think these gnolls are fun. I've also discovered that while they are indeed an "easy race" for beginners because there are no skilling decisions, also makes the import of the one decision you do have that affects skills, background, all the more important. So to satisfy my curiosity I compiled this list. The first column is the total number of skill points given at character creation (based on 0 aptitudes, so these will stay the same even as the +8 is tweaked as long as all skill stay at the same aptitude as each other).
  Code:
1050  Fi  8S  I 4D  Fgt 3  Wpn 2  Arm 3  Shd 3
1050  Mo  2S 2I 7D  Fgt 3  Wpn 3  Ddg 3  Sth 2
1000  As  3S 3I 6D  Fgt 2  Sbl 2  Thr 2  Ddg 1
1000  Wr  3S 5I 4D  Fgt 2  Wpn 2  Thr 1  Arm 1  Ddg 2  Spc 2  Trl 3
 950  En   S 7I 5D  Sbl 1  Ddg 2  Sth 3  Spc 2  Hex 3
 950  Cj   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Coj 4
 950  Su   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Sum 4
 950  Ne   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Nec 4
 950  VM   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Poi 4
 900  Gl  6S  I 6D  Fgt 2  Wpn 3  Thr 2  Ddg 3
 900  Hu  4S 3I 5D  Fgt 2  Sbl 1  Thr 4  Ddg 2  Sth 1  (javelins)
 900  Be  9S-1I 4D  Fgt 3  Wpn 3  Arm 2  Ddg 2
 850  Sk  3S 5I 4D  Fgt 2  Wpn 2  Arm 1  Ddg 1  Spc 2  Cha 3
 800  Tm  2S 5I 5D  Fgt 1   UC 3  Ddg 2  Spc 2  Trm 2
 800  FE   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Coj 1  Fir 3
 800  IE   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Coj 1  Ice 3
 800  AE   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Coj 1  Air 3
 800  EE   S 7I 5D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 2  Coj 1  Ear 3
 750  Hu  4S 3I 5D  Fgt 1  Wpn 4  Ddg 2  Sth 1  (launcher)
 750  Wz -1S10I 3D  Ddg 2  Sth 2  Spc 3  Coj 1  Sum 1  Trl 1
 700  AK  4S 4I 4D  Fgt 3  Wpn 2  Arm 1  Ddg 1  Inv 2
 700  AM  2S 5I 5D  Fgt 1  Wpn 2  Ddg 2  Spc 1  Hex 3
 650  CK  4S 4I 4D  Fgt 3  Wpn 3  Arm 1
 600  Ar  3S 4I 5D  Fgt 1  SBl 1  Ddg 2  Sth 1  Evo 3
Wn ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It seems to me to come down to, which skills would you like to be boosted for most of the game? For instance, a GnVM was very strong, able to easily cast OTR on D:3, but eventually I'm not going to need that extra poison magic. GnFI is very strong, because your effective skill cap is going to push you towards 1-handed weapons and Fi gets extra Shd skill, but your INT is so bad your spellpower sucks when you find books. I'd think based on the above that As and Hu, and maybe even Mo, might be added as suggested backgrounds for Gn.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 14:40

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Another reason Gn would be a good beginner race: it is very powerful early, meaning that new players get to see more of the game before their inexperience catches up to them.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 17:17

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Leszczynek wrote:Without reading the comments above, the new gnolls are stronger than even the first iteration. This also means two things: they're fun to play as and they should be moved to "Easy" column in race selection.


That may not suffice - I think they're in a category all of their own.
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Post Monday, 2nd October 2017, 23:02

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I have noticed that gnolls don't cross-train. If for instance I start with some Long Blades skill from my background, I am expecting based on my experience with other races that my Short Blades skill will always be a little bit higher than the other skills that started at zero. I don't think gnolls necessarily need any more help in the early game, but I did want to point this out in case it wasn't intentional.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 00:16

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I think this version of gnolls is fantastic!

I love it, everyone I have talked to loves it, veteran experienced players love it, new players love it!

It provides a unique and fresh way of playing the game, the gimmick is unobtrusive and it works well. Ive had tons of fun playing gnolls over the past several days and experimenting with what I can do and get away with.

I played a gnoll who died on level 24 of a zig, and I won a gnoll at xl22.

Ill admit, both of my gnoll games got great luck with items, and I think perhaps choosing gods that gift spells may have also changed my perception somewhat. Both of my newnewnewgnoll games were Gnoll Wizards. I think gnoll wizard is overpowered currently, you start with 8 MP, and 8!! spellcasting. You can learn every spell in the book at xl3. You also get to start with 20 int, which is pretty nuts. DeWz starts with 22 and most DE book starts get 19.

I think gnoll might actually be a little too strong, in the early game. Starting with 8+ in any relevant skill is a huge boon and getting tons of XL1 mana points and earlier access to spells sort of makes it really good. I also think that an experienced player can press this advantage well into the mid game and beyond, through the entire game, making gnolls a little bit too powerful the entire time. All it takes is one really good spell or weapon and suddenly you can do the lair branches easily. Newer or less experienced players might not see such opportunities as readily. Towards the end game you can just pick the best spells that have dropped and use the best items, I dont think gnolls get any weaker as the game goes on. They easily have 12 in skills when they finish lair, and 14-16 after getting 2 runes. This is enough for level 7-8 spells(if you have enough int, and light armour) and any 1 handed weapon.

But upon further thought, this isnt really a bad thing. Its a fun race that everyone likes, so what if its a little too powerful? Its a great way to try out spells, abilities, items you never otherwise would! For example my winning gnoll wizard learned 'Alistair's Intoxication', a spell I had never used before, because I had an opportunity to stab due to finding Boots of the Assassin. It seems like a great way for newer players to learn and try out things, and a great way for veteran power gamers to push the limits or blow off steam.

Maybe it could do with a bit of balancing, especially in the early game. And maybe it sort of breaks the way a few things are balanced. (Freezing cloud and other 3 school spells come to mind.) But if everyone thinks its fun and everyone is playing it, maybe its pretty close to how it should be already.

Best version of gnolls yet!

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Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 02:28

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

MainiacJoe wrote:I have noticed that gnolls don't cross-train. If for instance I start with some Long Blades skill from my background, I am expecting based on my experience with other races that my Short Blades skill will always be a little bit higher than the other skills that started at zero. I don't think gnolls necessarily need any more help in the early game, but I did want to point this out in case it wasn't intentional.

This was intentional in the implementation, with the logic that gnolls would always be crosstraining anyway so it makes more sense to just increase the melee apittudes if they actually need the boost.

mibe420 wrote:Maybe it could do with a bit of balancing, especially in the early game. And maybe it sort of breaks the way a few things are balanced. (Freezing cloud and other 3 school spells come to mind.) But if everyone thinks its fun and everyone is playing it, maybe its pretty close to how it should be already.

Best version of gnolls yet!

If they need a nerf (I'm not arguing one way or the other at this moment), it might be worth taking a look at Fangs 1 which might be causing too much damage in the early game now that Gnolls start with very good stats instead of average/pitiful:
  Code:
(fang mutation level * 2) + ((strength-10) / 5, randomly rounded)

Not only is it more likely to have better than the minimum damage, it is also way more likely to trigger with the increased strength+dex.

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Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 02:54

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

I suggest the following apt modifications. These are relative to baseline (currently +8):

Fighting -1
All weapon skills +1
Shields -2
Spellcasting +1

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Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 03:45

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

If species are supposed to be balanced relative to one another, then gnolls are obviously above average power and need to be nerfed. If species are meant to serve as difficulty levels (my understanding is that this is a widely held position among the dev team; I disagree but I'm not going to argue it in this thread) then gnolls are fine, perhaps the best candidate for an easy difficulty species in DCSS. Crawl's skilling system is really obtuse until you've played the game a while. A species that eliminates this aspect of the game is good for helping new players get into it. Everybody here has seen players do crazy bad skilling and most of us have probably done crazy bad skilling, consulted a guide to help with skilling, or even both at the same time. If species are difficulty levels then the ideal easy species simplifies the game in addition to being powerful, and gnolls do this pretty well imo.

Species which are overpowered and don't do this well include Deep Dwarf and Centaur. Both are relatively little-played by new players because they have unintuitive, annoying gimmicks (especially Centaur - does anyone actually like them?). If you want to avoid an increase to average species power, I would suggest nerfing both of these species before taking another look at gnoll balance.

All that said, Gnoll would still be fine if it got human-level stats and no fangs. It probably makes sense to look at the shields apt, though there is at least a tradeoff against the low delay 2H weapons and the good launchers there.

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nago, Rast, VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 04:35

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

For the record I don't use any shield (I have just started Snake) because my best weapon is a halberd (no good gifts from Oka yet despite faith) so arguably there is no need to nerf Shields aptitude.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 08:18

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Hellmonk wrote:(especially Centaur - does anyone actually like them?)

Yep.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 218

Joined: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 09:57

Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 12:17

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

My current GnEn dumpis not accessable right now (is underhound where I am meant to find my CLAN dump, it seems to not work like, most of the time, but CLAN itself is fine), but if you want Gn to be more of a use what you get from the floor kinda guy, more spell levels, or an amnesia ability, would be great.

((My enchanter went Kiku, and has loads of necromancy spells he would like, competing with BoFire, freezing cloud, shadow creatures, translocations, etc. I will amnesia dazzling spray, and I know I should amnesia tukima's dance or whatever its called, but then I find Sonja, and Rupert, and distortion weilding Nagas, and there are all those Vaults guys with weapons coming up next... stupid spell is too fun to be forgotten))

tl;dr: would gladly have all other skill apts adjusted down to +6 to get spell casting up to +10 :)

Also: fun race is fun

Tartarus Sorceror

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Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 14:55

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

Update to my amnesia thoughts from above: I've decided that the best plan (absent Sif) is to only memorize spells you'll be likely to use for a large chunk of the game. So my GnVM found Callings one level above the Lair stairs. Even though I could cast Imp now and Canine soon, I waited and just leaned IB and Spire, because I thought that eventually I'd not want Imp or Canine anymore, and I didn't need them at the time to survive. So while there is certainly an element of TRY ALL THE SPELLS!!!!! there is also learning curve in managing the opportunity cost of spell levels available. In this way, I think it is good for both novices to gain exposure to novel spells, but also good for skilled players who can develop a very robust spell set that other races' skilling doesn't easily allow. Increasing Spellcasting to give more levels is IMO short-term fun for the newbies at the expense of fewer interesting choices and replayability for the species.
Won (27): Ce, DD, Dg, Ds, Dr, Gr, Gh, Ha, HE, HO, Ko, Mf, Mi, oldOg, Sp, Tr, Vp, VS; Fi, Gl, Mo, Hu, As, Be, AK, En, Cj, FE, IE, EE, Ar; Beo, Dith, Fed, Goz, Kiku, Lug, Makh, Nem, Oka, Pak, Trog, Veh, Zin

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ohmi

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 20:38

Re: Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

My reaction is the same as most here - I really like the new game play and I noticed many of the points already made:
    Amnesia is much more valuable and important
    Background choice means permanent +s for those skills -- min delay comes much sooner for melee than spellcasters and that's good to know.
    Found branded weapons are more important and usable throughout the game
    Buckler is a no brainer for lots of the game but bigger shields seem less useful.
    Wanderer can generate particularly interesting combinations that can survive early
    Staves with melee effects have greater utility
    Agree that Elemental starts aren't as good as VM or Wz
    Chei is stronger earlier because any found low level spells could be immediately useful
    Definitely Easy

I haven't gotten a rune yet, but have been thoroughly enjoying all the games so far.

Console UI tweak: I would like the n level up to level-x messages to be collapsed if n > 4.

Manuals: One can argue this as an intentional weakness -- manuals simply don't work as fast

Spellcasting: I'm not sure we need MORE levels sooner -- again, it's a trade-off for the species?

Sif Muna: From a flavor perspective, Gnolls should earn Sif Muna rewards as fast or faster than any other species/background/skill% as befits their aptitudes.
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