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Tartarus Sorceror
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Rast wrote:As someone else pointed out, the +3 to all apts doesn't encourage you to spread out your skills.
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Rast wrote:The current 7/7/7 stats are miserable. I feel like I got tricked into taking 11 losses for no reason. Did designer run numbers on damage and spell power with these stats?
VeryAngryFelid wrote:How do other hybrids work? They have 1) good ac/ev/melee spell power (chei) 2) extra skil levels in many magic schools for free (ash) or 3) just help to hybridize by reaching min delay earlier (oka). Gnolls are bad at all this, for instance, having +3 in all skills makes oka/ash less attractive than for any other species
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Halls Hopper
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Barkeep
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duvessa wrote:I would be interested to hear what people who like playing generalist characters think of Gn. (I can't think of any such players off of the top of my head, so I can't just go and ask them.)
Crypt Cleanser
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grindst0ne wrote:(1) Gnoll default aptitudes are -2 on all (bare with me here).
(2) Gnolls have "Easy Learner":
Abyss Ambulator
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archaeo wrote:duvessa wrote:I would be interested to hear what people who like playing generalist characters think of Gn. (I can't think of any such players off of the top of my head, so I can't just go and ask them.)
I'm a fan. I've always really loved the idea of Gnolls, I hope this one works and I'm looking forward to giving this one a try.
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Barkeep
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4Hooves2Appendages wrote:What do you like about such characters?archaeo wrote:I'm a fan. I've always really loved the idea of Gnolls, I hope this one works and I'm looking forward to giving this one a try.
Ziggurat Zagger
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archaeo wrote:I think Crawl is more fun when you have to worship the floor god, and my most memorable games have been with generalist characters that needed to really use everything they were given, especially through the beginning of the game.
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:archaeo wrote:I think Crawl is more fun when you have to worship the floor god, and my most memorable games have been with generalist characters that needed to really use everything they were given, especially through the beginning of the game.
What is "worship the floor god" exactly? You find something useful on D:1, use it, train for it, then you find something else on D:2, use it, train it etc. That might work only when you have +5 aptitudes in everything at XL 1, at XL 2 your highest skill loses 4 aptitude and becomes +1, at XL 3 another highest skill loses 4 aptitude again (so if you insist on training the same skill you trained while at XL1, it becomes -3) and so on. Basically you cannot specialize too much but you easily can use everything you find
Ziggurat Zagger
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Floodkiller wrote:The aptitudes no longer scale, it is currently a static +3.
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Shtopit wrote:How do you limit that, though? (If it should be limited).
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watertreatmentRL wrote:I just hacked up a version of hellcrawl with kobolds that have the gnoll skill system I described upthread.
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watertreatmentRL wrote:The version of gnolls in hellcrawl now is kobolds (which had previously been a variation on the "cyno" concept), which have this issue of gravitating toward mid-10s mindelay weapons anyway. This and the existence of oka blunts the weapon selection issue you raise. Being small really seems to help for this mid-range skill concept. I messed around with gnolls a bit and I found the boost given to current kobolds wanting with a normal sized character. Indeed, giving them a bigger boost would change that. It didn't come together right away, can always return to it later.
I disagree that this pushes you into a particular "hybrid" style, whatever that means. Hellcrawl kobold non-wizard book backgrounds have one school significantly higher than the others, like +5 for non-wizard mages and +4 for enchanters, which has a strong impact on what your go-to spells are going to be. Depending on god selection, the other skills are mostly going to get you low to mid level utility spells, while your main skill gives you level 7 and 8 stuff by the endgame. You don't really have low maximum skills. To the extent that different spell schools offer different playstyles, you get those differences.
watertreatmentRL wrote:If I were going to try gnolls again, I would go with something like what you say though: Higher skill boost, like to a max of 16 maybe, and something like -2 hp apt. The low stat stuff is awful.
Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:I would be interested to hear what people who like playing generalist characters think of Gn. (I can't think of any such players off of the top of my head, so I can't just go and ask them.)
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Shoals Surfer
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Factorialite wrote:Will Heroism work?
Halls Hopper
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Ziggurat Zagger
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ezero wrote:"whats the point of this race?"
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Halls Hopper
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:ezero wrote:"whats the point of this race?"
I believe it is a great hybrid race, for instance, you can enjoy playing Wz without micromanaging what to train next and thinking if you should train Hexes for Slow or not.
Shtopit wrote:I have a question: all skills as in, all skills you can train because you have the right spells or items or god, or ALL skills?
Abyss Ambulator
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ezero wrote:But more importantly, when playing optimally skilling is mostly irrelevant(mostly), surviving is about methodical execution of combat engagements and luck, you usually just pick whatever is the best thing the dungeon generated and use it, regardless of how much skill you have on it(for generalist races, at least). This usually leads to avoiding magic, because its the one thing that requires both you constantly getting better spells and actual skill investment to make them useful, as well as int. So you would think gnolls are going to be different in that aspect because they will always be sinking exp to magic schools but thats exactly where this race fails.
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4Hooves2Appendages wrote:ezero wrote:But more importantly, when playing optimally skilling is mostly irrelevant(mostly), surviving is about methodical execution of combat engagements and luck, you usually just pick whatever is the best thing the dungeon generated and use it, regardless of how much skill you have on it(for generalist races, at least). This usually leads to avoiding magic, because its the one thing that requires both you constantly getting better spells and actual skill investment to make them useful, as well as int. So you would think gnolls are going to be different in that aspect because they will always be sinking exp to magic schools but thats exactly where this race fails.
I disagree. Skilling is important to build strong characters. The difference between wasting lots of XP on spellcasting (many new players do this) or getting better offence/defence makes a noticeable difference to character power.
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Like almost anything in crawl it is not strictly necessary to spend experience perfectly, after all people win with auto-skilling.
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:It is usually beneficial for most characters to specialise as soon as they have access to something that is good enough. Changing weapon types or spell schools every time a better thing comes along is probably a mistake. The correct decision would be weigh up the potential benefit against the experience cost.
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Avoiding magic is typically a mistake, because there are a lot of useful low level spells around. Most book starts are strongly encouraged to invest in magic too. Using magic doesn't mean killing everything with magic all the time of course. Generalists are strongly encouraged to pick all the nice accessible spells.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Floodkiller wrote:Another round of Gnoll rework!
The stat locked version obviously wasn't well received, and my patch for it got shot down because the devs didn't like the potential abuse that could come of it (min maxing stats to 28/1/1, for example). I took a step back for this rework because I had to help a friend with polishing up their game for release (and I was also a bit tired of Gnoll rework at the time), but gammafunk, elliptic, mikee and others pitched in to put together another version. It's pretty close to what one of my backup plans were, so it's got my approval. The details are:
- Stat locking and low stats are gone. Stats can be raised and lowered again, stat choice and stat growth (S/I/D every 4 levels) are back in, and starting stats are now 10/10/10 and affected by background choice
- Aptitudes for all skills have been raised to +8! However...
- All skills are always being trained at all times. You still get your starting skills from your background, but otherwise there is no way to focus your experience on a specific skill (cannot use Transfer Knowledge, experience potions just split the XP among all skills equally with no prompt, etc)
Side effects include no Trog worship/Beserker background (Gnolls can't help but train magic skills and Trog doesn't like that), no sacrificing Arcana under Ru, and no crosstraining bonuses for weapons (aptitudes for weapons can be raised later if they need a boost).
Any feedback (positive or negative) is appreciated!
Tartarus Sorceror
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