Swastika vault should maybe be removed?


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Slime Squisher

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Location: France

Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 09:20

Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Came across this vault while exploring, is it really ok to have a swastika vault in crawl?
  Code:
NAME:   roderic_hopi_sauvastika
TAGS:   transparent extra decor
DEPTH:  D, Depths
WEIGHT: 1
MAP
.....@.....
...xxxx....
...xxxx....
....xxx.xx.
.xxxxxxxxx.
@xxxxxxxxx@
.xxxxxxxxx.
.xx.xxx....
....xxxx...
....xxxx...
.....@.....
ENDMAP


https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/2c65edc55d884fe44d5e05d488073c6401899f20/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des#L1175
3 runes : MiMo^Ru, HOFi^Beogh, TrMo^Yredelemnul, GrFi^Ru, FoFi^Gozag, MiGl^Okawaru
4 runes : DDFi^Makhleb
5 runes : GrEE^Vehumet
15 runes : MiFi^Ru, NaWz^Sif Muna, GrWz^Sif Muna
I mostly play offline or online on CXC

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 10:44

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Swastika is pretty different from that. It turns the opposite way, has equal width after the arms turn instead of thinning. Also the Nazi version, which is the reason you post I assume, is also resting on a point not flat. Beyond all that the symbol itself is found in a large number of religions in the Indian sub-continent.
So even if this was a swastika, which it isn't, there would be no reason to remove it.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 10:59

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

doesn't really look like a swastika at all op

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ZipZipskins

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Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 16:21

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I had family members killed in the holocaust and I am still okay with vaguely sorta swastika-shaped rooms in crawl - the random map generator is not the particular front I wish to focus the effort to stamp out nazism on.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 17:04

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

PlatinumSpider wrote:Swastika is pretty different from that. It turns the opposite way
Vaults can be mirrored by the level generator, so it doesn't really matter which way it turns in the des; it'll generate turning both ways in the actual game. I don't know what "resting on a point" is supposed to mean. Being flat wasn't enough to save the Doom version from controversy.

I would suggest that roderic_ancient_swastika is a bigger problem.
  Code:
NAME:    roderic_ancient_swastika
TAGS:    transparent extra decor
DEPTH:   D, Depths
WEIGHT:  1
SHUFFLE: '"
SUBST:   x : xxxxxc
SUBST:   ? : xxxxxcm
SUBST:   ' : .
SUBST:   " : x

MAP
...........
.x'''x"""x.
.".?.x...'.
.".?.x.??'.
."...x...'.
.xxxxxxxxx.
.'...x...".
.'??.x.?.".
.'...x.?.".
.x"""x'''x.
...........
ENDMAP
It can generate this shape:
  Code:
...........
.#...#####.
.#.#.#.....
.#.#.#.##..
.#...#.....
.#########.
.....#...#.
..##.#.#.#.
.....#.#.#.
.#####...#.
...........
Although this obviously has a closer resemblance to some of the "ancient" swastikas (in particular the Jain swastika) than the Nazi swastika, I think you'd still get some funny looks for displaying it publicly without context in the West.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 19:30

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Reminds me of the good old days in AWBW, where every map with four-fold rotational symmetry got accused of being "secret swastika".

@WalkerBoh

Slime Squisher

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Location: France

Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 21:10

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

PlatinumSpider wrote:Swastika is pretty different from that. It turns the opposite way, has equal width after the arms turn instead of thinning. Also the Nazi version, which is the reason you post I assume, is also resting on a point not flat.

Shard1697 wrote:doesn't really look like a swastika at all op

If that's the general opinion, then it's probably ok to leave it in.

PlatinumSpider wrote:Beyond all that the symbol itself is found in a large number of religions in the Indian sub-continent.
So even if this was a swastika, which it isn't, there would be no reason to remove it.

johlstei wrote:I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I had family members killed in the holocaust and I am still okay with vaguely sorta swastika-shaped rooms in crawl - the random map generator is not the particular front I wish to focus the effort to stamp out nazism on.

I disagree about that, even if it is also found in many religions, the swastika is strongly associated with nazism (in Europe at least) and finding out that the game randomly generates swastikas could be (emphasis on "could") interpreted really really badly, and since it's just a small random decoration vault, I thought it would be easier to avoid the issue altogether by just deleting it (though I do agree that it is not in any way a capital matter).
3 runes : MiMo^Ru, HOFi^Beogh, TrMo^Yredelemnul, GrFi^Ru, FoFi^Gozag, MiGl^Okawaru
4 runes : DDFi^Makhleb
5 runes : GrEE^Vehumet
15 runes : MiFi^Ru, NaWz^Sif Muna, GrWz^Sif Muna
I mostly play offline or online on CXC

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5316

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Monday, 17th April 2017, 22:36

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Wasn't there a swastika vault that was removed some time ago? Regardless I'd agree the original one is different enough that I think it's fine, although roderic_ancient_swastika might be too close.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 18th April 2017, 02:52

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

I guess... there are kind of a lot of vaults in crawl, I don't think the swastika-lookalike ones are super special?

Also these have either 'sauvastika' or 'swastika' in the vault names so I suspect the shapes are on purpose. Maybe the roderic_hopi_sauvastika creator didn't know the vault could get mirrored, but it can, and then it's a swastika.

Maybe crawl would still be an okay game even if it didn't have vaults that people think are swastikas.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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mattlistener

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th April 2017, 03:04

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

njvack wrote:Also these have either 'sauvastika' or 'swastika' in the vault names so I suspect the shapes are on purpose.
goddamn we got a genuine sherlock holmes here

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Godmorgon, njvack

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 18th April 2017, 04:04

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Someone should make this into a vault; I see no possibility of causing offense to anyone: https://www.thoughtco.com/raelian-symbols-4123099


Seriously though, swastika vaults are a pretty easy remove/edit candidate.

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mattlistener

Temple Termagant

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Post Tuesday, 18th April 2017, 23:54

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Banning the swastika vaults seems very eurocentric to me.

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Kismet

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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 18:29

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

Has anyone actually claimed to be offended? That should be the first criterion.

They don't offend me personally and maps based on fairly large square cells make it harder to avoid swastika-like shapes. That said, of these vaults offend one or a few people, then I'd support removing them.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 22:27

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

If someone saw a vault partially named "swastika" and thought it looked like a swastika, that's a good reason to remove the vault imho. Don't need to wait to offend someone.

I agree that it's easy to make vaguely swastika-esque vaults. But vaguely similar is a lot different to explicitly the same as.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 20th April 2017, 01:54

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

I'd be bothered by exact swastikas, so go ahead and count me if you're looking for a victim to claim. But the "sort of" ones like the vault in the first post here are far enough away from the nazi symbol that I wouldn't associate it with nazis.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 20th April 2017, 04:36

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

tasonir wrote:I'd be bothered by exact swastikas, so go ahead and count me if you're looking for a victim to claim. But the "sort of" ones like the vault in the first post here are far enough away from the nazi symbol that I wouldn't associate it with nazis.

So you're not explicitly asking for these to be removed?

I just don't think anyone should spend too much time looking for things that someone might object to, but do actually react responsibility to complaints public or private.

bel

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Post Thursday, 20th April 2017, 05:03

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

It would be easy to make a private complaint if one so desired, so that criterion doesn't make much difference. Anyway, one can treat this thread as a "public complaint", so the criterion is satisfied anyway.

I don't really care either way, since it's a trivial change which doesn't affect anything. There are hundreds of other vaults; removing one or two wouldn't make any difference. I don't mind keeping it in the game either. So whatever the devs decide is ok for me.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 20th April 2017, 20:32

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

I don't see an explicit complaint anywhere in this thread.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 07:22

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

If you can make a valid claim that it is based on the Nazi symbol or has a Nazi meaning, then it should be removed b/c the Nazi symbol is a universal hate symbol today.

The symbol itself is common globally, and has a very different meaning with a 12k+ year history. And, even when you reverse the image the meaning changes.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 25th April 2017, 22:44

Re: Swastika vault should maybe be removed?

I've actually seen a couple of old buildings in Chicago that kept their decorative swastika motifs all the way through the second World War and the ensuing revelations. If they could maintain their position then, why shouldn't we maintain it now? The swastika isn't the Nazis' symbol. They *stole* it from the Aryans, a people who lived in northern India after whom the nation of Iran is named. And of course from there, the Buddhists, and hence Falun Gong etc. (the Hopis presumably came up with it on their own, as does anyone who tries to find nice symmetrical patterns to make out of 5-10 blocks tiles) If you want to make things any clearer, you can spawn a potent magical Llama at the center of the swastika, and if the player succeeds in killing it he can find a spinning swastika in its belly which he can use to increase his magic regeneration. ;)

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