Human weapon selection at chargen


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 02:31

Human weapon selection at chargen

(This may also apply to other races, but it's most obvious here)

I'm just curious as to what/if the rationale is for some choices of weaponry being greyed out. For example, with a HuCK, sword is greyed out.

I can't see any real reason why a +2/+2 short sword would be a disadvantage to them compared to a mace or axe. Am I missing something?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 03:25

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

I don't know if this is the intended rationale, but chaos knights have no starting abilities that lend well to a stabber, and short blades are markedly inferior to the alternatives in straight-up combat. You can upgrade to a bigger mace or axe, but a bigger sword will require a completely different weapon skill. I can't think of any reason why a human would want to start with a short blade as a chaos knight. The only races that might want to start with a short blade as a chaos knight are those that have exceptional short blade aptitudes, such as kobolds, and presumably the option of taking a short blade as a chaos knight is for those races.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 05:15

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

Simply put short blades suck.

You should always go with maces and look for a demon whip. It doesn't matter if you have a +4 aptitude for short blades and -4 aptitude for maces. Though I can imagine a situation such that you find an electric dagger and use it early on with the short blades skill permanently off until you find a decent mace.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 05:58

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

I think it is ridiculous that the demon whip is the de-facto best hand weapon bar none regardless of talent.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 10:22

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

Except it's not. Simply put snow was talking nonsense. The difference to the other demon weapons isn't actually that large, especially after dwhips got nerfed and dswords got buffed in 0.9. So if you have better apt with long blades or polearms those are perfectly viable alternatives for endgame weapons.

Also, taking a starting weapon you have -4 apt for because there is a good endgame weapon of that type is outright stupid. The early game is much harder than the endgame because of the extremely limited escape options. And you're never going to see that dwhip if you die on D:3 because you're useless with your chosen weapon.

Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 21:22

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

Many uniques tend to drop awesome whips. I think this makes M&F a good choice -- if I kill Pikel I might have a elec or pain whip, and I may actually finish the game with it, too. There seem to be more quality M&F drops early on, too. That might make them a good choice. This feature of Crawl annoys me a bit, as I tend to pick M&F often just for Pikel's elec whip.

Aptitudes matter more for slow weapons that require high skills to reach the speed cap. Using a demon whip with a -4 M&F apt is a lot different from using a giant spiked club or a double sword. Getting to skill 12 or whatnot is easier than getting to skill 24. Not that it matters for humans. But it should factor in for hybrid, caster, or low-apt builds that want to train other skills, too. So while snow's statement may be hyperbolic, in some cases wielding an awesome weapon will be more important than spending a few skill points.

I've been wondering if polearms and Oka/Trog make sense. Since there are fewer weapon types, you might be more likely to get a good demon trident. Is this true?

I must be playing poorly because I tend to go M&F often. But not with Merfolk.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 21:45

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

Pikel and Grinder's starting equipment was nerfed for that very reason. They no longer spawn with super-whips.

Currently, the four big weapon classes are all roughly the same. Axes are a little less good than the others because they're too biased towards being two-handed weapons, but your character can do fine with any of the four and they all follow roughly the same power curve. Staves and short blades, though, follow an entirely different power curve and are only suitable for certain builds or play styles. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is definitely relevant to your starting choices.

Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2011, 23:00

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

Oh, nerfing Pikel's whip must have happened very recently -- he still has elec whips in 0.9. But maybe more rarely.

Anyone know if it's true that for a weapon god gift you're more likely to get a demon trident than a demon whip/blade because there are fewer different polearms?

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 15th August 2011, 21:00

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

An elec whip could be useful to many more builds than a pain whip might be. If pain whips were replaced with elec whips then the change could encourage more players take M&F.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 16th August 2011, 19:35

Re: Human weapon selection at chargen

The only noticeable thing your weapon skill does is half your weapon delay. How good your weapon is matters much more than your weapon skill. That being said... pick a good weapon and don't worry about aptitudes and such. Short blades are only good for stabbing and they're horrible at everything else.

I used to ALWAYS go for short blades and even managed to win a few games with them because the examine info in game is highly misleading and implies short blades are in fact the best weapon type. Once I learned to use maces with EVERYTHING, even spriggans, my melee games got infinitely easier. And yes, I've won with axes and such too, but axes generally require you to get your weapon skill really high and the investment just isn't worth it.

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