Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update


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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 02:19

Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Hey folks,

I just updated the dynamic monsters branch with new rules:

* Monsters can have up to three levels of bezotting. Triple-bezotted monsters are very scary.
* Monsters that follow you off-level will get a level of bezotting.
* Monsters that are tracking you when you leave a level get a level of bezotting.

The premise is that this will further reduce luring by making the risks even scarier, and by making staircases a very dangerous tactical tool. Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 02:48

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Nobody liked it the first time it was tried. Just let it die

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 03:08

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Not to pile on here, but this is a dead end. More elaborate "bezotting" mechanics won't change that.

The way forward re: stairs is already in current hellcrawl. Simply disallowing the player to go back upstairs makes the descent way more tactical. A more "incremental" version might disallow the player to go back upstairs for 50-100 turns, so you can maintain backtracking and so on. As shiny brain memes go, "bezotting" is the small brain, hellcrawl is the normal sized shiny brain, upper torso entwined in galaxy with brain radiating is timed upstairs and/or escape hatches only with small levels (~10 tiles less in both directions) to reduce space for luring.
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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 03:42

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 05:31

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I really don't like trying to handle Orc with Bezottled enemies. I can't imagine ZOT is much better. It's doing it's job, I just wonder how you deal with triple bezottled enemies in places where stairdancing is almost encouraged.

The loss of backtracking in hellcrawl is why I stopped playing it, as a side note.
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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 13:16

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Option at start/in rc: disable backstairs

Problem solved.
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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 13:56

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

TeshiAlair wrote:Option at start/in rc: disable backstairs

Problem solved.

You'd still have to redesign the dungeon structure, as you couldn't get out of side branches. Maybe just put a portal out of the branch at the bottom level of the branch or something...
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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 21:23

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Sprucery wrote:Maybe just put a portal out of the branch at the bottom level of the branch or something...


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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 22:11

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Lasty and I started talking about how to deal with staircases because the first iteration of the branch ("dynamic monsters") showed this: while naive luring is somewhat (just a little bit) held in check by monsters getting stronger, you can (and should!) ab/use staircases to mitigate the effect. In other words, staircases extend your luring radius by a lot. Of course, that leads to extra tedious gameplay: you'll cling to your staircase even more than you usually (should) do.

It's interesting to think about rule change for staircases. There's the former Hellcrawl approach (you stop climbing up/down if you receive any damage while doing so). There's a proposal by poster bel (I hope I got the right attribution here) of a "staircase pass" item, a consumable item one of which is used up every time you want to use a staircase with at least one monster aware of your presence (that's a really cool idea, by the way, and I think it can work well).

We opted for the change mentioned in the OP because it's an easy (concept and code) extension of bezotting. In actual play, the change is definitely noticeable. There's no arguing that the current Hellcrawl solution (no backtracking whatsoever, as in the original Rogue) is the cleanest and most pure solution. I don't think vanilla Crawl will get there at all (I can elaborate on this, but maybe not here), and I do think that staircases should be nerfed regardless of the bezotting mechanic.

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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 22:28

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Bezotting is the kind of thing that makes this game unapproachable. It is not reasonable to throw such a complicated mechanic at new players on D:1-2. It's complex and opaque what bezotting even does, and new players won't even understand how monsters become bezotted for a long time. In my view DCSS with upstairs removed and all monster speeds increased to at least 16 would still be easier to pick up and learn than this is.

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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 22:42

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I agree with opaque but not with complex. As usual, the specifics could be explained, but I don't think that's necessary for the first experimental branch. The basic idea is that a monster can become more dangerous after a while [1] -- this is certainly not hard to get. Neither you nor I are new players, so it's hard to say for either of us how newbies will understand this. Myself, I am very positive that players who grasp more than two dozen species, backgrounds, gods, spells and status effects will be able to deal with another set of monster properties.

Also you know that if something like this would ever make into trunk, then it will have follow-up changes (even if slow). By the way, one reason why I suggested this particular approach is because new players tend to mindlessly march towards monsters (and die like flies): they're least affected by this change. Apart from that: of course it's a nerf, that was the intention from the start.

Regarding no upstairs: that's Hellcrawl and it is good. I don't think that vanilla Crawl should do that. For one, it removes a lot of strategy (which is one way to proceed, but I'm fond of strategic decisions, and I think DCSS has the scope for that). Secondly, this makes the game a lot harder than bezotting. Yes, it would be clearcut and easy to convey -- that does not mean it'd make for the "best" game (with "best" being subjective etc.)


[1] And the current mechanic (faster movement speed and improved combat numbers) is just one approach. There are many other options.

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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 22:47

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

dpeg wrote:Myself, I am very positive that players who grasp more than two dozen species, backgrounds, gods, spells and status effects will be able to deal with another set of monster properties.
Yes, that's probably true. I'm talking about the players who haven't grasped the dozens of species, backgrounds, gods, spells and status effects yet.

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Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 23:24

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

dpeg wrote:I am very positive that players who grasp more than two dozen species, backgrounds, gods, spells and status effects will be able to deal with another set of monster properties.


Kind of expanding on duvessa's point: in order to play Crawl, you *don't* have to grasp more than two dozens species/backgrounds/gods. You can just pick MiBe and be done with it, while you're learning the basics of the game. This is how I approach any new roguelike - pick what appears to be/is said to be a strong starting character, and play it repeatedly until I grasp the mechanics. The complexity of character selection is optional. This is less true of status effects, but these are a) a lot clearer than bezotting in cause and function and b) introduced somewhat gradually - you don't see all status effects in the game on D:1-3.

An effect like bezotting is not optional at all, and is a lot more complex than status effects. Every character will have to deal with it one way or another. In terms of cognitive load, it's actually kind of similar to multiplying the number of monsters the player has to be familiar with by four. No longer do you only need to know if a gnoll, on average, is deadly to your XL3 MiBe. Now you need to know if a singly-, doubly-, or triply-bezotted gnoll is deadly to your XL3 MiBe. Alternately, you need to know exactly how to play around monsters so as to not bezot them. Either way, it's a lot to throw at a new player, and speaking from experience, complex mechanics like that *do* turn me off to new roguelikes.

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 01:18

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

dpeg wrote:I am very positive that players who grasp more than two dozen species, backgrounds, gods, spells and status effects will be able to deal with another set of monster properties.

I've won crawl 81 times, and while I did go for great player (all races), I have still never won a game with:

Ashenzari
Dithmenos
Fedhas
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Lugonu
Nemelex
Sif Muna
Uskayaw
Xom
Zin
Wu Jian.

Now some of those are relatively new, but others have been in the game for as long as I've been playing (about 5 years). I do have a tendency to pick Chei far too often, but don't underestimate people's willingness to find what works for them and stick to their favorite style. Some of these gods I've made a few attempts at, and others I've almost entirely ignored. A few are because I don't care to learn their mechanics (fedhas's rain/fruit mechanics, Nemelex decks, etc). I've tried a few games with some but didn't keep going until I won.

I don't know much about bezotting (there's no description here and I haven't seen the branch), but imho stair dancing is an important tool in some cases. I'd be careful to overnerf it. It could stand a slight nerf, maybe just do the "if you take a hit while using stairs, you stop" and call it a day?

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 01:43

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I agree that Bezotting as implemented is too opaque. In addition, the anti-luring component is likely to feel random, especially to new players. For reference, the chance of a monster getting bezotted is equal to (turns spent tracking you)/(turns spent tracking you + 2000), so it neither consistently punishes any sane amount of luring nor avoids bezotting enemies that you weren't trying to lure over the course of a full game; there were some examples of this posted in the last bezotting thread. I am not sure how you fix both problems at once without adding even more complexity. Maybe there is some better method of identifying luring behavior and a simple, easily explainable way to make monsters stronger in response to said behavior, but the current implementation misses the mark enough that I think you'd have to start over from scratch. There are better options to explore first.

I would like to see bel's upstairs pass idea tried. It's an easy to grasp concept and should make the decision to stairdance non-trivial assuming that the total number of passes is kept reasonably low. DCSS-CA style stairs would be ok (Jeremygurr did it before I did, so give him some credit!). I think they are still a relatively low risk escape option in many cases, but they at least make stairdancing somewhat less reliable.

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 01:47

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

If you want to address stairdancing specifically you can make stairs take a very long time to use - say, as long as putting on armour. Of course this leaves luring and the other uses of stairs unaffected, but I'm not sure trying to solve luring and stairs with the same mechanic is a great idea in the first place.

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 07:20

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

There are at least four solutions to stairdancing that are easy to implement (I guess):
1. Can't use stairs if there is a hostile monster in view (what about invisible monsters?)
2. Can't use stairs if there is a hostile monster next to you.
3. Can't use stairs if something attacks you while climbing.
4. Using stairs takes a lot of time (possible to combine with any other solution)

I agree that luring and stairs probably need different solutions. My personal opinion that luring does not need a radical solution, just make monsters shout more/always.
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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 10:25

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Two quick points:

1) bezotting in the current branch is fairly opaque because I assumed that people would read about it here first and then go try it out, so to save time I didn't document it strongly in-game. There is the point raised above that "how deadly a monster is" becomes harder to learn because you theoretically have to learn it *4 in this branch, but I think in practice that's not really the case. The amount deadlier a monster gets with a level of bezotting is very consistent, and so once you have a sense of how it affects a few monsters you should be able to quickly apply that lesson to others.
2) re: HellMonk's point about the mechanics of bezotting, there is also a tracking amnesty applied to all monsters upon first sighting and an extra amount applied to monsters that create space (e.g. blinking monsters). The net effect of this is that if you aren't luring at all you should never see a bezotted monster. If you lure a little -- light repositioning to get nearby favorable terrain -- you should rarely see bezotting. re: point 1, all of this should be explained clearly in-game should a proposal like this ever make its way into trunk. I probably should be less lazy and just implement it now.

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 14:54

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Stair dancing is not a problem.

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Post Monday, 10th April 2017, 00:40

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

it's a problem for players who want out of crawl basically a series of encounters whose tactical solutions aren't all trumped by using stairs. if crawl were more linear, with smaller levels, and the player less free to back up, then the player would always be challenged to discover the safest and most efficient way to end an encounter based on the terrain, number and type of monsters, etc, whereas now the player is almost always free to break up any pack of monsters into manageable chunks.

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Post Monday, 10th April 2017, 22:06

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Build upon stairdancing. Redesign it into a tactical and strategic choice. How 'bout staircases getting turned into climbs of differring difficulty governed by a skill of some sort?

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Post Tuesday, 11th April 2017, 00:35

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

yesno wrote:it's a problem for players who want out of crawl basically a series of encounters whose tactical solutions aren't all trumped by using stairs. if crawl were more linear, with smaller levels, and the player less free to back up, then the player would always be challenged to discover the safest and most efficient way to end an encounter based on the terrain, number and type of monsters, etc, whereas now the player is almost always free to break up any pack of monsters into manageable chunks.

The problem with this is now the player is almost always free to break up any pack of monsters into manageable chunks without stairs, it just takes longer and is more tedious.
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Post Tuesday, 11th April 2017, 15:02

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I don't see stairdancing as a problem, but if it is to be a tactical or strategic choice, why not simply increase the time to move up a staircase?

This bezotting mechanic, is just so counterintuitive, and the name is just...uninformative.

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Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 00:44

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Plantissue wrote:I don't see stairdancing as a problem, but if it is to be a tactical or strategic choice, why not simply increase the time to move up a staircase?
The goal is to come up with better player deaths. If you press a key (< or >) and die because someone else wailed on you for several actions, that's not very satisfying. This already happens now, with staircases and paralysis [1] and energy randomisation (which bezotting does away with).

One achievement of the dynamical monsters branch is that the additional threat is announced. This makes it more clear, allowing the player to deal with it consciously.

[1] Paralysis is despised by players for this very reason. Its saving grace is that it adds a lot of threat and creates interesting situations. It is certainly not the best design, in my opinion, just effective.

Plantissue wrote:This bezotting mechanic, is just so counterintuitive, and the name is just...uninformative.
The name is arbitrary, and intuition is strictly a function of exposure. (If you've seen something for long enough it becomes intuitive.) So I parse your sentence as "the mechanic is novel and badly named". The branch is about exploring rule changes, so the name is no concern at all at this point.

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Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 13:49

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I've been playing a human fire elementalist on this branch, and I've been enjoying it quite a bit. I no longer have the feeling that when I play in a way that's fun for me I'm playing suboptimally. I have been forced into situations which demand harder choices than normal, and the outcomes have generally been interesting. I think this is, if not an unmitigated success, at least a significant step in the right direction.

I've noticed a few bugs -- like apparently plants can have you as an enemy and then get bezotted when you climb stairs -- and I'll try to clean those up soon, but as far as I've seen nothing that should affect gameplay.

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Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 22:48

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Nobody in this thread likes 'Dynamic Monsters' except for the two devs. I went back and checked every post.

N O - B O D Y


Let it die.

bel

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Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 23:09

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Is anyone forcing you to play it?

If you're worried about it becoming part of Trunk, I think your worries are premature.

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Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 23:55

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Lasty: Another minor bug: uniques and ghosts are kept on the Ctrl-O screen if you kill them but they changed bezotment status.

crawl-dev discussion showed that if anything like this (monsters being able to pick up additional powers during play) is going to work, it needs a proper interface. Currently, you can only see it from a monster's name. This is workable, but not good enough.
That's not urgent, but something to think about for the long run. (The concept of monsters acquiring new powers could be interesting in contexts entirely different from stairs/luring.) Tiles won't be a problem, but console is. The best I could come up with is brands (like the "sleeping", "confused" etc. brands we already have).

Feedback by players giving the CBRO branch a shot are very welcome. Especially if you try to break it!

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Post Sunday, 16th April 2017, 01:53

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Speleothing wrote:Nobody in this thread likes 'Dynamic Monsters' except for the two devs. I went back and checked every post.

N O - B O D Y


Let it die.
In fairness, if someone likes the branch they really have no reason to comment on it.

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Post Sunday, 16th April 2017, 15:48

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Speleothing wrote:Nobody in this thread likes 'Dynamic Monsters' except for the two devs. I went back and checked every post.

N O - B O D Y


Let it die.

This really doesn't meet the expectations for GDD posts, but since it's directed at me, I won't moderate it.

If people do not like the branch and I do, that just motivates me to either 1) try to tweak the branch until people do like it, or 2) convince people to like it and/or to try it. There are a lot of reasons why this branch wouldn't be popular even if it's a good idea: it (at least in theory) attacks tactics that players have grown to rely on; it is unpolished; etc. Many objections are resolvable either by changes to the branch or by convincing people to see it differently.

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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 02:55

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Sprucery wrote:There are at least four solutions to stairdancing that are easy to implement (I guess):

I've got a fifth; rather than being wailed on for several turns by monsters next to the stairs and completely free from monsters not next to the stairs, stairs take one turn but every monster in LOS that can path to the stairs will (may? Based on Stealth / monster intelligence?) follow you to the next level, pouring out after an appropriate delay. Stairs aren't useless, since they're a choke point, but there's no way to just scrap off every pursuer who wasn't next to you.
My personal opinion that luring does not need a radical solution, just make monsters shout more/always.

Particularly a monster might be more prone to shout if you are moving away from it. "They're getting away!"
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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 15:40

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I'm not a fan of this addition to the game because I disagree on the negative impact of both bezotting and the issue it's trying to fix. But it's not hard for me to see why these devs might see it that way, and I'm way dumber than most people here. Sometimes the change you desire to fix the problem as you perceive it starts out as something quite different in someone else's head.

The fact that people have such trouble with the branch even existing indicates they might be a little too bezotted themselves to be thinking rationally.

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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 17:42

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

Speleothing wrote:Nobody in this thread likes 'Dynamic Monsters' except for the two devs.


You can also replace 'Dynamic Monsters' with 'player ghosts' or traps' :D

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Post Wednesday, 19th April 2017, 20:13

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch / bezotting update

I like player ghosts...
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