Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change it.


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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 15:41

Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change it.

While a melee-oriented Ds is perfectly viable, with Hu-like stats and aptitudes (almost), most people that play Ds aren't going to neglect magic. Having a forced spirit shield is extremely annoying because it cuts into the MP pool that I want to use for its intended purpose. I also like worshipping Chei and his abilities also all use MP for some reason.

This mutation should be changed so that it isn't so detrimental. It could also be removed, because while it isn't boring, they have no shortage of interesting mutations already and this is still one of the least interesting.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 17:41

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

I'd actually argue just the opposite: Ds spirit shield is far more interesting on casters than on non-casters. Much like the shared "essence" of defunct species like Djinni, or the innate spirit shield of the Vine Stalkers, it makes for a much more complex series of choices and decisions. Heck, you can see something similar with the Majin-Bo, and with hurling hellfire.

Do I spend what's basically my health on using abilities and spells, or rely on my spirit shield to make me more tanky? If I'm a caster, does it pull away precious MP when I need it, making the game more challenging, or does my massive MP pool cushion me against that unlucky stone-giant-hurled large rock? You say that you want that MP to be used for its intended purpose, but what purpose is that - attacking enemies, healing yourself, summoning creatures, buffing yourself? Spirit shield does two of those things, after all, buffing your "health" pool and increasing your effective healing rate.

Making it toggleable or removing it blunts these questions or challenges, making it either an irrelevant mutation or one turned on only when you know you'll benefit most from it. You might as well ask for Vine Stalkers to be removed (innate spirit shield), or for all mutations to be toggleable (not being able to able to wear boots is fine until I find boots of running). Certainly not everyone would consider VS to be "extremely annoying," after all.

It just seems like your argument boils down to "things should always be what I define as good, and never have potential trade-offs."

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Gigaslurp

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Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 17:48

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

I feel like net positive tradeoff mutations like spirit shield are cool so long as they don't encourage particular tedious strats in order to mitigate their downside. Maybe you change your character's direction a little in order to get better value out of it. The god conflict is more annoying imo but idk i think the issue is more that god abilities shouldn't use mp.

If spirit shield is a problem, fire blood (whatever) is a bigger problem, as is d guardian (although thats been changed a lot lately)
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 18:01

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

I'd feel like the extra mana regen from ranks 2 and 3 would offset any issues caused by Guardian Spirit, though I'll admit I haven't played nearly enough Ds to have any meaningful input on the later stages of this mut in practice.

That being said, why bother with Ds if you're not willing to work with random muts?

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Shtopit

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Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 19:04

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Spirit shield is interesting in that it can completely change the playstyle, but it's an odd one in that it will be viewed as negative if you was planning to play as a heavy magic user. Every demonspawn mutation is regarded as a wholly positive effect with no downsides at all which can be used without changing playstyles to prevent negative effects. The exceptions being the somewhat hated monstrous demonspawn ones which prevent certain armour being worn. Perhaps also the cloud spawning ones which may hurt your allies. What is the intention behind demonspawn? Surely it is to gain interesting and beneficial mutations randomly, not to play a somewhat muted mutation roulette.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 4th April 2017, 01:03

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Plantissue wrote:What is the intention behind demonspawn? Surely it is to gain interesting and beneficial mutations randomly, not to play a somewhat muted mutation roulette.

Demonspawn is the race you choose if you want to play Xom while having a god who supports you for it.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 4th April 2017, 03:24

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Ds spirit shield is actually really good on casters though...

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duvessa, Gigaslurp, nago

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 13:04

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

NhorianScum wrote:Ds spirit shield is actually really good on casters though...


Please elaborate.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 13:51

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

As a caster you'll have lots of MP so when you get hurt you don't die so easily. You'll also get fast MP regen which is good.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 14:07

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Sprucery wrote:As a caster you'll have lots of MP so when you get hurt you don't die so easily. You'll also get fast MP regen which is good.


If I'm at range, I'm going to be using most of that MP before I get hit. If I turn a corner and see an ogre, stone giant, or juggernaut, and they get a hit, I've suddenly lost most of my ability to retaliate.

And casters only have lots of MP if they train up spellcasting a lot.

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 15:41

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

PowerOfKaishin wrote: If I turn a corner and see an ogre, stone giant, or juggernaut, and they get a hit, I've suddenly lost most of my ability to retaliate.
lol that's not when you retaliate, that's when you gtfo

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 5th April 2017, 15:51

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

...and without spirit shield you might be dead...
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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Gigaslurp

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Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 01:29

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

It's been said, but I agree that DS spirit shield is one of the strongest facets you can get, for basically any type of character build. You probably aren't going to mutate it at level 3, so by the time you have spirit shield, you should have at least 10 and probably 20 mana. If you can go around a corner and suddenly take enough total damage that you lose 15-20 mana, that's definitely in the "panic and run" category, not the "wish I had mana to hit back with". Most escape abilities don't cost mana, unless it's a god ability (Chei's are quite mana intensive, especially step from time being 10 mana). You probably want to read a scroll in most cases. If you actually have access to controlled blink you'd better have 40+ mana at that point, and I doubt you'll see it entirely removed before you can react. But at this point, the thread is drifting more into Dungeon Crawling Advice territory...

Temple Termagant

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Post Wednesday, 12th April 2017, 12:02

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

As a primarily caster player, I agree. I've gotten to the point where if I get SS mut on my DS, I just flat out reroll.

Spirit shield is good when your mana has no other use to you. As someone entirely reliant on my mana as way to fight enemies, any circumstance where you MIGHT be in danger is amplified by the fact your mana gets toasted when you get damaged. I get how someone who doesn't play casters often cant see how spirit shield would be more a seal on doom than a fall back defense, but take my word for it that it most certainly IS doom. Basically youre adding a modicum of survivability in exchange for you entire ability to fight."

So yeah, I think the SS ego as a mutation shouldn't work anywhere past 50% mana. That would make it still a huge hindrance, but one that can be worked around with patience and effort.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 12th April 2017, 13:11

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Kersey wrote:I get how someone who doesn't play casters often cant see how spirit shield would be more a seal on doom than a fall back defense, but take my word for it that it most certainly IS doom. Basically youre adding a modicum of survivability in exchange for you entire ability to fight


this is ridiculous because if you take a hit from something that "toasts" your mp what you needed in that moment to live long enough to escape was spirit shield, not enough mp to miss three throw icicles or whatever.

the insinuation that people in this thread don't know how to play characters with offensive magic is the hilarious icing on the mistaken cake

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Post Thursday, 13th April 2017, 10:44

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

ZipZipskins wrote:the insinuation that people in this thread don't know how to play characters with offensive magic is the hilarious icing on the mistaken cake

Im sorry, let me reiterate.
Im mostly speaking in regard to mid-end game, where any mage character faced with any group of opponents is likely to get shot/aoed/smite targeted more often than not.

Losing the ability to cast a last couple fireballs or ignition that would finish off a group of enemies because a yaktuar got a lucky hit while you're halfway into your mana pool is more likely to turn a situation deadly than losing the extra 10 health. Having the ego has killed me in more situations than its helped- I pretty much play just to clear Ziggurats for fun, and both times I managed to get a Mana Shield DS there SS killed me by throwing my mana management askew.

I do understand the mutation roullette is random almost entirely benificial. However, this is pretty much the only circumstance where its detrimental, and when it is a problem its usually lethally so. Again, I think the HP regen to MP should kick in at 50% mana, and at that point the passive shield should stop. Its more a point of possible improvement than a life/death issue at the moment.

@ZipZip
Its not when youre at full mana and you get ogre slapped by surprise because youre auto-exploring, its when youre low on MP in a tense encounter. Youre speaking to the benefits entirely and you pretty much dismissed the downsides, so why are you here? You arent even arguing your point, just nay-saying.

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 13th April 2017, 11:41

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Kersey wrote:Having the ego has killed me in more situations than its helped- I pretty much play just to clear Ziggurats for fun, and both times I managed to get a Mana Shield DS there SS killed me by throwing my mana management askew.

Well, there's your problem. Spirit Shield's indeed a liability in ziggurats. Or anyway it's indeed a liability in megazigs, or at least it's a liability if you use the Makhleb recipe on the wiki to clear them (which admittedly is the only way I know how). But this isn't a reason to change them, since ziggurats aren't really part of Crawl proper so much has an optional minigame for when you can win anyway but still want to keep grinding for some reason.

In the actual game, however, there are few if any situations where spirit shield is a liability in this way and that can't be avoided with decent play, and in these rare situations (unlike ziggurats) you can use consumables to escape. Plus, EVEN IF spirit shield made a difference to your build--if, say, it DID require you to have options for when you ran out of mana--isn't that in theory (though generally not of practice) the point of demonspawn? that your Ds mutations should make a difference to your build?

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Post Thursday, 13th April 2017, 13:38

Re: Let Ds spirit shield be toggleable or otherwise change i

Kersey wrote:Its not when youre at full mana and you get ogre slapped by surprise because youre auto-exploring, its when youre low on MP in a tense encounter. Youre speaking to the benefits entirely and you pretty much dismissed the downsides, so why are you here? You arent even arguing your point, just nay-saying.


See the whole thing is if the encounter gets you low on MP and is tense you should leave it instead of dying on that hill

Also if I knew you were talking about fucking ziggurats (which by the way your initial post didn't bother to mention, meaning your goalposts are a little wiggly) instead of real crawl I never would have replied.

I will say though that I feel sorry that you feel the need to quit your spirit shield demonspawn at xl:6 or whatever in anticipation of ziggurats, that's kind of a rough life to lead

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