Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 05:47

Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

There are a couple problems with Dr at the moment:
1. The colours aren't very different from each other
2. They lack meaningful disadvantages compared to humans

I believe it would take Draconians in the direction of solving these problems if, upon getting a colour, they got a corresponding defensive weakness to go with their colour.
Black: Reduced EV or reduced dodging aptitude (because your wings are extra big or whatever)
Green: Greatly reduced stealth? (because you smell really bad idk)
Grey: MR-
Pale: rC-
Purple: Reduced scales AC
Red: rC-
White: rF-
Yellow: dunno, sorry
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 06:16

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

duvessa wrote:2. They lack meaningful disadvantages compared to humans


Draconians can't wear armour, and gain experience much slower than a Human does.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1762

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 07:57

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

They have good innate AC, which for a caster(what people play Dr for) is basically strictly better than AC which comes with encumbrance. That said I'm not sure they need to be worse when the current state of the game(in actual practice) is that heavy armor melee is the easiest way to get wins.

That said wrt the op yellow could have rPois-, wouldn't be super crippling since you'd be getting your color after early adders are super scary.
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 08:14

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Shard1697 wrote:They have good innate AC, which for a caster(what people play Dr for) is basically strictly better than AC which comes with encumbrance. That said I'm not sure they need to be worse when the current state of the game(in actual practice) is that heavy armor melee is the easiest way to get wins.

That said wrt the op yellow could have rPois-, wouldn't be super crippling since you'd be getting your color after early adders are super scary.

I really don't think giving incentive to not getting to level 7 should be encouraged, in any way, shape or form. We've been shown before that giving players the option to do ridiculous things (see: mummy scumming, avoiding traps) because they have some form of tactical advantage means that they will eventually.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 08:47

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

I didn't suggest rPois- because it's really uninteresting and annoying.
Elitist wrote:Draconians can't wear armour, and gain experience much slower than a Human does.
Except the lack of armour is directly negated by their innate AC, and the lower xp apt is directly negated by their +10% HP. But yes, an alternative would be to get rid of their innate AC and reduce their HP modifier to 0.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 11:06

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

While the first point is reasonable, what's the reasons behind the second?

Races' design in dcss contemplates differences in power level.
Why now draconians should be worse humans?
I am not saying they shouldn't ever, but that there should be a good reasons to change them
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1698

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 16:29

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Generally speaking, I am against elemental weaknesses in races, because I think that they invite tedious aspects in the game. If everything in Crawl were nicely clear-cut and monster ice mages used ice and fire mages used fire, it could more or less function: you know what to expect from whom, and, while you still are pretty much forced or at least invited to do some tedious ring-swapping, it can be played.
Crawl mages aren't like that: you don't know what the wizard is about to hit you with until it's too late. So you must take unfunny risks or unfunny precautions, and attempt to avoid getting blasted by monsters that may or may not use the element you are weak against. In the end, this becomes boring, because elements are opaque but omnipresent in this game, and you have no choice but to keep constantly in mind that particular aspect of your race in the event that it unexpectedly bites your ass.
Because of this, a race weak against all elements would likely be "easier" (as, less contrived) to handle. At least, you would always know what to expect.
It's true that draconians are strong. They also might enjoy some larger differentiation between colours. I don't think they are too strong, however. They are like magic minotaurs, but fun to play, and magic is more difficult than melee.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DSBeTr 15DSFiRu 3DSMoNe 3FoHuGo 3TrArOk 3HOFEVe 3MfGlOk 4GrEEVe 3BaIEChei 3HuMoOka 3MiWnQaz 3VSFiAsh 3DrTmMakh 3DSCKXom 3OgMoOka 3NaFiOka 3FoFiOka 3MuFEVeh 3CeHuOka 3TrMoTSO 3DEFESif 3DSMoOka 3DSFiOka

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1739

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 17:27

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

duvessa wrote:1. The colours aren't very different from each other


This is true.

If it needs to change, adding a different negative resistance to each one is not the way to go. Elemental damage is spiky enough already.

For this message the author Rast has received thanks:
Speleothing

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1193

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 18:54

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

duvessa wrote:... But yes, an alternative would be to get rid of their innate AC ...


Getting rid of their innate AC would make Draconians terrible: 11 AC with fully enchanted boots, gloves, cloak, & hat. Surely reducing their innate AC is a more viable change.

What about making the apt differences more dramatic?

And DrBe is currently strong and fun. Not everyone plays Draconians as beefy casters, and Gargoyles overlap that a bit (except bad HP).

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Saturday, 1st April 2017, 22:47

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

I like this idea in principle, but I think elemental weakness are a bit bland and don't affect play much other than increasing the frequency you swap rings.

Here are my thoughts:

Black: Reduced EV or reduced dodging aptitude (agreed)
Green: Greatly reduced stealth (a bit kitchy but I kinda like having a poisoner style not directly tied to stealth)
Grey: MR- (agreed)
Pale: Instead of a defensive weakness, flatten their apts. It's weird that their three bonus apts are already used by other dracs. Maybe boost invo by one to compensate.
Purple: Reduced scales AC (agreed)
Red: Cold blooded always triggers, rC does not protect against it.
White: Fire attacks have a chance to daze or blind for one turn.
Yellow: swapping equipment corrodes it briefly until you can fix it- makes in combat swapping less valuable
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1762

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 01:33

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Why should Dr be nerfed, though? They're strong but not dominant. If there's any aspect of their design that ought to be changed IMO(besides Dr ghosts), it's some of their breath attacks.

For this message the author Shard1697 has received thanks: 2
nago, papilio

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 03:28

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Even if you want species to be unbalanced, each species should still have some sort of advantage over others. When one species is just better than another in every way, that's a problem. Currently Dr can do everything Hu does except better, and that feels pretty bad. If Dr didn't get the benefit of heavy armour for free (hence the suggestion to reduce their innate AC to 1), or Dr had another actual disadvantage added (such as elemental weaknesses), it would remain better than Hu but there would be some things Hu is better at.
Obviously Dr > Hu is not the only instance of this problem but I'm trying to address them one at a time.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 04:09

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

It is certainly true that many species are too humanlike, frequently human-but-better. Hill orc, merfolk, and gargoyle come immediately to mind but there are plenty of other offenders here. Draconians are actually less human-but-better than other human-adjacent species. In any case, there's something to be said for removing species, e.g. human, in response to this issue rather than fiddling with individual species.

If there's a problem with color introducing insufficient variation, the resistance component is a big part of that and continuing in that direction is likely a dead end. After all, resistances don't do anything... amirite? Negative resistance is more consequential than positive resistance, but it's still just a matter of shuffling rings etc. The breath is really the main difference between most colors. It's unclear that it's actually necessary for different variants of the same species to be significantly more distinct than the breath weapons.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 07:36

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

duvessa wrote:Even if you want species to be unbalanced, each species should still have some sort of advantage over others. When one species is just better than another in every way, that's a problem. Currently Dr can do everything Hu does except better, and that feels pretty bad. If Dr didn't get the benefit of heavy armour for free (hence the suggestion to reduce their innate AC to 1), or Dr had another actual disadvantage added (such as elemental weaknesses), it would remain better than Hu but there would be some things Hu is better at.
Obviously Dr > Hu is not the only instance of this problem but I'm trying to address them one at a time.

Draconian AC isn't as good as real body armour, you're trying to claim that "similar but not the same" things are the same, they aren't. Maybe your experience of them is the same, but a Early Hu who stumbles across plate mail (Or even scale or chain) is in a very different place than an Early Dr. Trying to collapse them into the "same thing" is a false equivalence.

XP vs Hp bonus for Hu vs Dr is also different, on an early spellcaster, you'll have access to memorizing your 2nd and 3rd level spells earlier with a Hu, and have more MP to cast spells with.

Those are some advantages, claiming they aren't enough, or that they aren't significant is reasonable, claiming they don't exist at all is hyperbole.

FWIW I'd rather draconians just lost a ring slot, rather than got an elemental weakness, it'd result in a similar net effect, but it'd be less annoying. (Actually having a race with less jewelry is something we don't have right now, so that might be a unique thing generally.)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
Lasty, nago

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 09:47

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Or they could lose some other aux armor slot.
I thought this could kinda be an april fool post, but as it seems not, I wonder why you're suggesting as solution for a non-existant problem one of the most annoying and bad features ever - aka inbuild elemental weakness.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 15:12

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Draconians are better with book backgrounds since they get an AC bonus and a resist without needing body armor.
Humans are better in non-book/melee backgrounds, because they can use body armor. A good body armor drop is a big swing in your favor that Draconians can't leverage, whereas a human can reasonably get ~20 more AC than a draconian if he has a good body armor, in the long term (10 from base AC, 10 from ~20 armor). A melee draconian, to me, feels obviously weaker than a human with a decent body armor. I guess you can allocate that XP into Dodging or spells but:
1. Draconians have poor dex and dodging anyway so it's not like you're going to get Spriggan EV
2. Most of Crawl's support spells have been gutted except spectral weapon and it probably isn't long for this world
3. High-evasion characters are overrated since there are quite a few EV-ignoring attacks.
Seems ok to me...
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 2
nago, papilio

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 19:27

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Still not sure why Dr needs a nerf. Draconians are the best race that isn't broken. I think they're in the right spot.

I wouldn't mind some of these vulnerabilities, but a few things:
1. It's hard to adapt to this each Draconian weakness is not only distinct (except for Pale and Red) but also something that doesn't affect any other race but Mu and I guess Ce. The player needs to be periodically reminded of these weaknesses when they move to a new, unexplored floor. Nothing that does a force-more, however.
2. Dr should receive buffs in return. Specifically the ones that aren't Grey, Red, and Pale. Adding unique and fun strengths is going to be more interesting than adding weaknesses.
3. lol, stealth penalties. I don't think penalizing something like stealth to be a good idea unless it's done from the getgo. Unfortunately, I too, do not have an alternative suggestion.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1111

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2013, 23:23

Post Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 19:47

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

tabstorm wrote:1. Draconians have poor dex and dodging anyway so it's not like you're going to get Spriggan EV
3. High-evasion characters are overrated since there are quite a few EV-ignoring attacks.
Seems ok to me...


Huge EV seems great until about the 3rd stone giant you run into and then you realize that one failed roll basically got you killed....

Also, someone else mentioned it above, but Draconians are really the one place in the game where you notice that you have 0 GDR no matter what your AC number reads as.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 03:53

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

1. Draconians don't need nerfs

2. Penalties without advantages are never interesting discriminations, they're just irritating
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 13:48

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

duvessa wrote:Currently Dr can do everything Hu does except better, and that feels pretty bad. If Dr didn't get the benefit of heavy armour for free (hence the suggestion to reduce their innate AC to 1), or Dr had another actual disadvantage added (such as elemental weaknesses), it would remain better than Hu but there would be some things Hu is better at.
Obviously Dr > Hu is not the only instance of this problem but I'm trying to address them one at a time.

Draconians do not get the GDR that comes with heavy armour, and gain experience much more slowly than Human does. If it means anything, they also can't wear helmets.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 15:59

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

Elitist wrote:Draconians do not get the GDR that comes with heavy armour, and gain experience much more slowly than Human does. If it means anything, they also can't wear helmets.


The lack of GDR kinda sucks, but it's not important. Shitty rolls on Draconians don't tend to be an issue. If they are, then GDR should actually be added so that Dr AC is doing its job.

Not wearing helmets doesn't mean much, as helmets aren't relevant during the hardest part of the game: the beginning. Dr mages come with twice the normal mage AC right off the bat and tend to breeze through the first few floors. Draconians are good because they're a tanky race that can use magical extremely well thanks to not having to worry about physical defense and perfectly serviceable INT and magic apts.

Your experience point is valid, but IMO it doesn't make up for the difference. I wish there were a way to make that xp apt difference more pronounced.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1762

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 16:05

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

I mean, you could increase it. Again, I don't think they need a nerf(honestly I think it's really good for hardy spellcaster species to exist), but if you want the xp apt difference to be more pronounced... it could always be made more pronounced, straight up.

For this message the author Shard1697 has received thanks:
nago

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1131

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Monday, 3rd April 2017, 16:13

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

I really think that this is only an April 1st joke - sorry for ruining it.

I think duvessa like to point out that vulnerability is a really really bad drawback (design wise, not power wise), so maybe it could be removed from mummies. Maybe not tough, sorry if I am wrong, but that would be my interpretation.

For this message the author sanka has received thanks:
nago

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 161

Joined: Thursday, 16th May 2013, 15:28

Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 20:51

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

nago wrote:Or they could lose some other aux armor slot.
I thought this could kinda be an april fool post, but as it seems not, I wonder why you're suggesting as solution for a non-existant problem one of the most annoying and bad features ever - aka inbuild elemental weakness.

Duvessa's gimmick is posting solutions to non-existent problems. Unfortunately lots of people take the bait, the devs see a thread with 20 posts, and we end up with unnecessary reforms.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Thursday, 6th April 2017, 22:20

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

You know that gdd on DCSS' development weighs light 0,1% and number of posts on an argument like 0,0000000000000000000000000000001%, right?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

For this message the author nago has received thanks:
duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 01:50

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

nago wrote:You know that gdd on DCSS' development weighs light 0,1% and number of posts on an argument like 0,0000000000000000000000000000001%, right?

Once upon a time I suggested they remove the dragonslaying ego from weapons other than wyrmbane, and they actually did. I've been here 5 years. It's my crowning achievement on these forums. I'll answer any questions you have. Signatures are $5.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Friday, 7th April 2017, 07:25

Re: Give Draconians elemental vulnerabilities

tasonir wrote:
nago wrote:You know that gdd on DCSS' development weighs light 0,1%

Once upon a time I suggested they remove the dragonslaying ego from weapons other than wyrmbane, and they actually did.

Search says you have 805 posts in GDD and 1/805 is 0,12%. QED
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks: 2
nago, PlatinumSpider

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.