The Tavern

Mutations are no longer an option, they're a minigame that one eventually has to play, hence Halfling having rMut innately doesn't make much sense anymore. This is fine, but Halfling doesn't have much uniqueness, resembling a dodgier, less damaging Minotaur without the awesome weapon aptitudes.

The only thing I could think of off the top of my head is making Halfling more like the medium races, while still holding a few of the flaws of the smaller ones. Those changes would be things like being letting them wield weapons like double swords one-handedly, or "only" require 15 shield skill to use medium ones effectively, but still barring them from glaives and great swords.

Alternatively, we could just retire Halflings in 0.20.

I have never had any desire to play a halfling because they do not seem interesting or inventive. DItto to removing them in .20

PowerOfKaishin wrote:I have never had any desire to play a halfling because they do not seem interesting or inventive. DItto to removing them in .20

They're pretty comfortably strong, everyone just shies away from them because they think slings suck (spoiler: they okay, but greatslings are wicked). They just seem similar to Minotaur to me, and being little doesn't make them distinct enough for me without rMut.

Elitist wrote:Mutations are no longer an option, they're a minigame that one eventually has to play

what
you still have to actively go out of your way to eat mutagenic chunks/clear mnoleg's level/etc., or worship xom or jiyva, in order to get significant mutations at all, and even then just curing them is easier than ever
and if you mean you want to have literally no mutations at all until zot:5, you can easily do that too by just not quaffing unidentified potions or trying to clear zot:1-4

i do agree that rmut, being a resistance, is painfully uninteresting

i think ha and ko were just intended to be stabber species, with ko having the extra carnivore flavour and species-version-of-a-monster flavour (see og, tr, gr...), and then dcss ended up with higher standards for species than that, so aptitudes were shuffled and rMut was added, but neither has made for a distinctive species or even a species that people want to play, because players looking for the stabber species(tm) just pick spriggan

duvessa wrote:
Elitist wrote:Mutations are no longer an option, they're a minigame that one eventually has to play
you still have to actively go out of your way to eat mutagenic chunks/clear mnoleg's level/etc., or worship xom or jiyva, in order to get significant mutations at all

Either I'm absolutely bonkers or Neqoxec can cast malmutate still. And what's crazy about malmutate is that, despite what the commit said, there are still character crippling mutations (teleportitis, anyone?) that should be removed immediately.

I'm still maintaining that rMut should be left to items/gods, and that Halfling had better get distinct real fast or be removed.

even if neqoxecs were fast and had hp and malmutate didn't require line of fire, they don't even generate outside of abyss, pan, two wizlabs, and two extremely telegraphed vaults, all entirely optional locations. it's not a stretch to say that neqoxecs functionally don't exist, unless you have a very weird strategy against summoners.

teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling

Okay, you're right, most of the things that can summon neqoxecs aren't found a ton in the required parts of the game. I still feel like mutations aren't optional anymore outside of Zin
For reference, I like new mut pots.

We'll have to agree to disagree on teleportitis, but I still think Halfling can stand to go if not retooled and Cyno is more than fit to stand in its place.

duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling

you couldn't be convinced that the chance to get randomly teleported into the middle of a pack of enemies at any time a pack of enemies exists on the same level as you is dangerous?

Halflings become less like 'halflings' with every revision cycle, same as ogres. Recognizably Halfling traits include, besides smallness, skill at short blades, throwing, slings, dodging, and maybe translocations and charms (though these last two are arguably more gnome-like). Purely mechanical considerations have made them good at armour and shields as the melee-oriented small race.

I enjoy playing Halfling warpers as they seem uniquely suited for it. I would miss Halflings but not for mechanical reasons.

Isn't luck supposed to be a halfling trait? Can that be worked in to them somehow, maybe better acquire rolls?

duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous

Sure, if you don't think being killed is dangerous.

Would moving in the opposite direction as OP and starting Halflings with rMut 3 step on Zin too much?

Instead of rMut 3, how about receiving all mutations as Wretched Star-style temporary mutations?

mrob wrote:Instead of rMut 3, how about receiving all mutations as Wretched Star-style temporary mutations?

Ooh, that's interesting.

Hm, maybe there should be an accuracy mutation, (+5/10/15) and Halflings should get rank 3 (just riffing off the luck thing)

(Might make HaAE appealing...)

I really like Siegurt's idea, it would've been better with old halfling though.

How about some other innate trait to make them more appealing, like +10% max HP instead of -10%? If "more tanky Kobold" is their current niche, maybe a higher HP pool would make sense.

dolemite99 wrote:How about some other innate trait to make them more appealing, like +10% max HP instead of -10%? If "more tanky Kobold" is their current niche, maybe a higher HP pool would make sense.

Careful with 10%, I keep complaining that Halfling is similar to Minotaur. Giving them the same HP margin would not make them more distinct.

A little race with normal HP sounds cool to me. I feel like if we made their average offensive apt -1 or -2 while retaining +4 to slings, then increase their defensive apts to +2, we could accentuate their damage issue while further promoting their awesome defensive potential. They'd be the mighty bulwark, for better or for worse.

Elitist wrote:
dolemite99 wrote:How about some other innate trait to make them more appealing, like +10% max HP instead of -10%? If "more tanky Kobold" is their current niche, maybe a higher HP pool would make sense.

Careful with 10%, I keep complaining that Halfling is similar to Minotaur. Giving them the same HP margin would not make them more distinct.

A little race with normal HP sounds cool to me. I feel like if we made their average offensive apt -1 or -2 while retaining +4 to slings, then increase their defensive apts to +2, we could accentuate their damage issue while further promoting their awesome defensive potential. They'd be the mighty bulwark, for better or for worse.

I could get behind that plan. That would be somewhat distinctive. Not particularly great at dishing out damage with most weapon types, but a sturdy little cannonball who can take a lot of punishment.

Or because everyone around here loves Tolkien-inspired memes (not really), give them an innate ability to find "The Precious": Sense jewelry the same way Gozagites sense gold.

MainiacJoe wrote:Would moving in the opposite direction as OP and starting Halflings with rMut 3 step on Zin too much?

rMut is about the 843rd reason to take Zin IMO. If you're taking Zin because you're afraid of mutations, you're bad at Zin.

prozacelf wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:Would moving in the opposite direction as OP and starting Halflings with rMut 3 step on Zin too much?

rMut is about the 843rd reason to take Zin IMO. If you're taking Zin because you're afraid of mutations, you're bad at Zin.

What's great about taking a god for the wrong reasons is that the god is good otherwise. Sure, taking Zin for rMut isn't its main attraction, but that's alright because you now have Revitalize and Recital. And if you make a mistake, Sanctuary.

Actually really good weapon skills (like + 3s) that are limited by their inability to use big weapons and their low hit points?

I play a lot of halflings because it's fun to be Frodo. I'd hate to see them go. Remove nasty Koboldses instead.

Give halflings the Ds shadowstalker mutation.

Someone just buff their defensive apts and maybe invo/evo, or whatever. Although having a halfling-specific "luck mutation" that could either benefit or hurt them sounds neat.

The Tavern

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