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Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd February 2017, 16:08
by minstrel
Blink + Decent HP + EV+++ + quick regen + weak attack makes crimson imps an exercise in tedium for low level characters without any real threat, except in the rare cases where they spawn with a wand or the like (if they even still can in recent versions). You can mash tab, but that introduces danger if you walk into unexplored territory, another monster comes along, etc. while doing so. The correct choice is always the tedious one - either park them up a level, or carefully wait to strike, over and over again until you get a few lucky shots and overcome their defenses.

If their regen were removed, they'd be just as easy for higher level characters, and less of a tedious fight for lower level ones.

If that makes them too much like bats, get rid of them.

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd February 2017, 20:07
by Rast
Or just walk away.

Imps are good in the same way bats are good, you can use them like walls.

A lot of these remove threads could be shortened to "remove fun"

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th February 2017, 00:00
by ion_frigate
"Just walk away" is precisely equivalent to "park them up a level," unless you want to have to deal with autoexplore and autotravel being broken all the time. These aren't oklob plants - they're speed 10 monsters that will attempt to follow you. Even if their habit of blinking means you'll eventually lose them, it's still tedious as hell, and still prevents you from using autoexplore on that level.

I've been playing since 0.4. In that time, I have never once found a standard crimson imp to be anything resembling "fun." Fighting them feels like fighting the shitty high-AC, low-damage HP buckets that infest the latter half of NetHack. They force engagement but rarely put you in any actual danger.

Honestly, crimson imps' best moment was when they could pick up a bow and annihilate you with it. I'd suggest removing the regen, and guaranteeing them a weapon (one that has a decent chance of being a bow with arrows). Melee imps would then be an early introduction to blink frogs, while ranged imps would help teach the player that having some sort of ranged weapon of your own is a good idea. One could even make them appear first individually, and then in groups, as happens with gnolls and ogres.

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th February 2017, 00:44
by amaril
packs of crimson imps... wtf dude

Seriously, crimson imps only exist because the call imp spell exists. They do a worse job teaching players about enemy blinking than orc wizards and phantoms (which are basically just as annoying as crimson imps except that they can maybe actually kill you if you ignore them... unlike crimson imps) do, and they do a worse job blocking passages than the aforementioned monsters + bats do.

Call imp doesn't need to create blinking monsters. Arguably, that could be the 'point' of the spell, but it summons other non-blinking monsters, so... nope. IMO the summons could always be 'good' imps that expire quickly, so they aren't so great at protecting you from enemies for extended periods of time. Plus if they expire quick the spell can remain lv 2. So, I'm in favor of removing crimson imps (and quazits and hungry/player ghosts, while we're on the topic of early game monsters that are annoying and can't actually kill you).

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th February 2017, 01:23
by Shard1697
Rast wrote:A lot of these remove threads could be shortened to "remove fun"
crimson imp regen is... fun???

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Sunday, 5th February 2017, 18:12
by kuniqs
Being annoying is kinda the point of Crimson Imps, isn't it?

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Monday, 6th February 2017, 02:31
by milski
kuniqs wrote:Being annoying is kinda the point of Crimson Imps, isn't it?


Is "Being annoying" really a good design goal, though?

I'm vaguely sympathetic to the idea that Crimson Imps are "useful" as an early, nonlethal example of how sometimes it's better to run from monsters than fight them, though they do so by being 100% nonthreatening but shouting "You must do X DPS for autoexplore to work on this level" is stupid, but just keeping them as they are because they are annoying seems dumb.

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Monday, 6th February 2017, 23:50
by tasonir
Being annoying is bad design. Please remove red devil's "leap back" ability as well.

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Thursday, 9th February 2017, 18:44
by yesno
yes but also spawn them with wands, slings, and bows, imo

or merge crimson and shadow imps, give crimson imps pain

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Thursday, 9th February 2017, 19:02
by MainiacJoe
The only time crimson imps kill me is when they spawn with a wand. That sucks a lot because the blink and regen makes it nearly impossible to kill them before the wand kills you.

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Thursday, 9th February 2017, 19:26
by lethediver
surely there must be a better way for crimson imps to teach players not to fight everything they encounter other than them being really annoying and tedious to kill

Re: Remove fast regen from Crimson Imp

PostPosted: Thursday, 9th February 2017, 23:46
by papilio
lethediver wrote:surely there must be a better way for crimson imps to teach players not to fight everything they encounter other than them being really annoying and tedious to kill


D:1 worms already greatly serve that lecture for noobs.