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From an IRC conversation (I don't mean to imply that eb endorses or indeed has ever seen this idea, but it was their remarks that got me thinking):

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<eb> tbh I don't like newdrain or at least how it is used for everything <eb> more things that try to kill the player directly pls <eb> it makes sense for ru powers, not as much for drowning <me> Especially drowning in lava :-)

I quite appreciate that the current approach is intended to eliminate a source of instadeaths, which Crawl isn't keen on, but I also feel draining is a bit entirely arbitary. I'd like to suggest the following:

Firstly, a short (circa 10 moves) grace period after flight would normally run out where flight ends immediately if it can, but otherwise it continues.

Secondly, make it possible to re-evoke flight evokables during the grace period. (The player will never be able to "end flight" at this point, so it doesn't confuse the 'a' menu). This would have a draining effect, but this makes more sense thematically - you're wresting a bit of magic from an item that's already operating, which is a difficult thing to do.

Now you still can die - you might go on a long trip with only one potion of flight, or repeatedly fluff your evocation roll - but you only can die through inadequate supply of consumables, or by gambling on a roll with a low chance of success.

damerell wrote:From an IRC conversation (I don't mean to imply that eb endorses or indeed has ever seen this idea, but it was their remarks that got me thinking):
Code:
<eb> tbh I don't like newdrain or at least how it is used for everything <eb> more things that try to kill the player directly pls <eb> it makes sense for ru powers, not as much for drowning <me> Especially drowning in lava :-)

I quite appreciate that the current approach is intended to eliminate a source of instadeaths, which Crawl isn't keen on, but I also feel draining is a bit entirely arbitary. I'd like to suggest the following:

Firstly, a short (circa 10 moves) grace period after flight would normally run out where flight ends immediately if it can, but otherwise it continues.

This is the same thing as buffing flight by adding 10 moves to the duration, and changing how long before expiration you get the warning.

This would have a draining effect, but this makes more sense thematically - you're wresting a bit of magic from an item that's already operating, which is a difficult thing to do.

Or even better, you have to continuously (and automatically) wrest magic from the item to stay alive, which causes additional draining every turn.

Wait, that's the current approach.

Why does it drain you at all? Can't flight just last until you reach safe terrain, without any extra penalties attached?

duvessa wrote:Why does it drain you at all? Can't flight just last until you reach safe terrain, without any extra penalties attached?

It would encourage players to stay on the water in locations like Shoals or Coccytus to save some potions of flight.

Alternatively:

Make ring of flight toggle-able instead of temporary (like boots of flight).
Either remove potions of flight, or make them last until you use stairs (also add the ability to end it early from the 'a' menu).

It's now impossible to get stuck anywhere with flight unless you cross water/lava using a potion of flight and then intentionally end it before crossing back, in which case you really have only yourself to blame (and even then there should always be a trap door in any place you could get stuck anyway, since random teleportation is a thing).

Hurkyl wrote:
damerell wrote:Firstly, a short (circa 10 moves) grace period after flight would normally run out where flight ends immediately if it can, but otherwise it continues.

This is the same thing as buffing flight by adding 10 moves to the duration, and changing how long before expiration you get the warning.

Not quite; you can't use those ten moves to cross a combination of land and water. But it's there to introduce a point where the 'a' menu doesn't need to include "End Flight". (If it's still felt to be a net buff the duration could reduce somewhat to compensate).

Or even better, you have to continuously (and automatically) wrest magic from the item to stay alive, which causes additional draining every turn.
Wait, that's the current approach.

I take your point, but in the current approach you can continuously and automatically wrest magic from a potion you've already drunk, and there's no way to screw it up completely and die.

I still vote:

Being in deep water when you can't swim or in lava gives you the Slow status. (If that's not bad enough, make it even more slow. Slow is pretty bad though.) Being in lava adds fire damage. You can walk into deep water or lava if you want to. There's probably a confirmation prompt. There's no emergency flying (or emergency water walking).*

I feel like drain for emergency flying is really weird -- it doesn't really change how you treat the terrain, but if you mess up even in a totally safe location you incur a long-term cost. And I think the whole "this terrain is a wall unless you have access to one of several ways to totally ignore the wall" concept is not very interesting.

* If you wanted to take this all the way, player flying could be eliminated, because a bunch of it is for "how do I get the loot from across the water" and forcing players to deal with the water in shoals and coc might be interesting. But that's for another topic...

njvack wrote:I think the whole "this terrain is a wall unless you have access to one of several ways to totally ignore the wall" concept is not very interesting.

I think it's interesting tactically, same as other resistances [*]. If the character has found a source of flight and chooses to use it, the fight will play out one way, and if not it will play out another way.

Strategically, it's pretty bad in the same way that Trove Of You Must Currently Have rC+ Or Better To Enter would be. If there is an item on the other side of water, and the character doesn't have a flight source in inventory, it would be best to allow him to slowly "swim" over to get the item, rather than backtrack 10 levels to get that potion of flight from the floor.

* inb4 duvessa posting that resistances aren't interesting.

Rast wrote:Strategically, it's pretty bad in the same way that Trove Of You Must Currently Have rC+ Or Better To Enter would be. If there is an item on the other side of water, and the character doesn't have a flight source in inventory, it would be best to allow him to slowly "swim" over to get the item, rather than backtrack 10 levels to get that potion of flight from the floor.

Mind you, I find it hard to imagine having 52 items all of which are more compellingly useful than a source of flight.

njvack wrote:* If you wanted to take this all the way, player flying could be eliminated, because a bunch of it is for "how do I get the loot from across the water" and forcing players to deal with the water in shoals and coc might be interesting. But that's for another topic...

What about removing deep water/lava instead? the only "dealing" with deep water happens when you are a amphibious race and you cant auto explore shoals or you end up on open terrain surrounded by a pack, or you simple get blown into deep water by a wind drake.

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