The Tavern

now that nobody pray anymore, won't it be a good idea to map "p" (that was used for prayers) to Put on jewellery ? (in addition to "P" of course)

I like p as the "macro key" because it isn't bound to anything. This doesn't change that, so I'm on board.

My proposal:

1. Merge 'P'ut on and 'E'quip.

2. Merge 'R'emove and 'T'ake off as well.

3. Remove 'q'uaff, 'r'ead, 'e'at, e'V'oke, 'M'emorise completely and merge all of them to 'u'se.

Dividing keys that basically do same thing is terrible idea.

All of these mechanics are some dumb heritages from Nethack, so eradicate them completely plz

papilio wrote:My proposal:

1. Merge 'P' and 'E'quip.

2. Merge 'R' and 'T'ake off as well.

3. Remove 'q'uaff, 'r'ead, 'e'at, e'V'oke, 'M'emorise completely and merge all of them to 'u'se.

All of these mechanics are some dumb heritages from Nethack, so eradicate them completely plz

Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

If you want to play a more annoying game, you can do any or all of the above things from 'i', then you won't have to remember whether the 'ring of fire resistance' is a 'ring' or a 'body armour' (which is the only reason to do as you suggest.)

-- Also "u" is a movement key, rebinding movement keys is a terrible plan.

Oh, 'u' was a movement key. Then we can select other candidate anyway.

Siegurt wrote:Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

I disagree here.
You love reducing number of menu choices,
then do you agree splitting 'r' into 'r' (reading only emergencies, yellow-coloured scrolls) and 'Ctrl+r' (reading other scrolls),
because doing so reduces length of item list?

Probably no.

papilio wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

I disagree here.
You love reducing number of menu choices,
then do you agree splitting 'r' into 'r' (reading only emergencies, yellow-coloured scrolls) and 'Ctrl+r' (reading other scrolls),
because doing so reduces length of item list?

Probably no.

That's simply a strawman. Reduction of complexity, like all things, is a trade off; up to a certain point, splitting up options (meaningfully! As in, you wouldn't use i if you could use r, because 'use an item' isn't precisely your intent, but 'use a scroll' is) is more useful than tedious, beyond that point it is more tedious than useful. The only question is 'where exactly is that point?'

There are plenty of examples of this same basic idea in GUI programs -- excessively flat and excessively categorized menus are both annoying. You should be able to be direct about your intent, but not need to be absurdly specific about it.

papilio wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

I disagree here.
You love reducing number of menu choices,
then do you agree splitting 'r' into 'r' (reading only emergencies, yellow-coloured scrolls) and 'Ctrl+r' (reading other scrolls),
because doing so reduces length of item list?

Probably no.

If I felt like I commonly had too many scrolls to select among, I might, however since my total number of different types of scrolls on hand is fairly managable, I don't advocate splitting them up (Plus "emergency" vs "nonemergency" is a fairly unbalanced division)

Siegurt wrote:
papilio wrote:My proposal:

1. Merge 'P' and 'E'quip.

2. Merge 'R' and 'T'ake off as well.

3. Remove 'q'uaff, 'r'ead, 'e'at, e'V'oke, 'M'emorise completely and merge all of them to 'u'se.

All of these mechanics are some dumb heritages from Nethack, so eradicate them completely plz

Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

If you want to play a more annoying game, you can do any or all of the above things from 'i', then you won't have to remember whether the 'ring of fire resistance' is a 'ring' or a 'body armour' (which is the only reason to do as you suggest.)

-- Also "u" is a movement key, rebinding movement keys is a terrible plan.

I agree that you don't need to merge all of the commands but I think w and W should be merged. Distinguishing between armour and weapons to shorten the list is not really a problem since people usually only carry only 1 or 2 backup weapons, for brands or artefact effects, and the same for armour.

PlatinumSpider wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
papilio wrote:My proposal:

1. Merge 'P' and 'E'quip.

2. Merge 'R' and 'T'ake off as well.

3. Remove 'q'uaff, 'r'ead, 'e'at, e'V'oke, 'M'emorise completely and merge all of them to 'u'se.

All of these mechanics are some dumb heritages from Nethack, so eradicate them completely plz

Actually they aren't dumb, they reduce the number of menu choices you have to look at when doing each of these things, 4 things to choose from is less annoying than 8 or 10.

If you want to play a more annoying game, you can do any or all of the above things from 'i', then you won't have to remember whether the 'ring of fire resistance' is a 'ring' or a 'body armour' (which is the only reason to do as you suggest.)

-- Also "u" is a movement key, rebinding movement keys is a terrible plan.

I agree that you don't need to merge all of the commands but I think w and W should be merged. Distinguishing between armour and weapons to shorten the list is not really a problem since people usually only carry only 1 or 2 backup weapons, for brands or artefact effects, and the same for armour.

Ah but w and W have very different implications for turn cost and in-combat use. While the simplification of menu options argument is very minor at best between these two, removing your boots in combat is rarely a good idea, while switching weapons is frequently a good idea.

It is pretty easy to fat finger and select the wrong item, if the only things in the list are weapons i am a lot less likely to accidentally try to bend over to tie my shoelaces while an orc is getting ready to bash my head in.

I think this comes up (and it had come up before) when someone hits the wrong key to use/equip the item they wanted, and are vaguely annoyed that they have to back out and hit a different key to get to the item they wanted.

I therefore suggest that the thing to do would be to add "menu jumps" so if you are in the "q"uaff screen, you can hit control-r to go directly to the "r"ead menu, or control-m to go directly to memorize, etc. (Maybe a single key to cycle through the menus like | or something)

Good point on the fat fingers, point ceded. +1 for menu jump idea too.

papilio wrote:All of these mechanics are some dumb heritages from Nethack

You are simply not too "dumb" to understand its usefullness.

Also, each individual menu can have individual binds/inscriptions, which is useful.

Which if there weren't different menus, you can't use the same key in the same menu.

I find them more useful than convoluted. If anything, although there are more menus now, I have to assume d and i are harder on new players than menus with less things in them that have a pointed intent.

I do agree with the original topic though, it doesn't harm anything.

The Tavern

map p for Put on

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