The Tavern

Minotaurs have very little correspondence to their mythological counterpart. From the lead section on their Wikipedia article:

The use of "minotaur" as a common noun to refer to members of a generic species of bull-headed creatures developed much later, in 20th-century fantasy genre fiction.

The developers have expressed a dislike for Tolkien, yet this particular use of minotaurs is even newer than Tolkien, as far as I can tell. Moreover, there are plenty of mythological warrior peoples that the design of Mi corresponds very nicely to. These are all from Greek mythology, but I'm sure people can come up with examples from others:

Spartoi: The warriors who grew from dragon's teeth. Known for fighting each other into near-extinction for a very silly reason, so a nice fit for a "good at bashing things but dumb" species. Doesn't actually seem to be related to the historical Sparta.
Myrmidons: Achilles' warriors, almost certainly mythological. Also a pretty good fit.
Amazons: Possibly more historical, so that may be a problem. I don't see any issue with the gender implications, though - it's not like Crawl ever references the player's gender.

This change would also entail the retooled Minotaurs losing their horns. I don't see a problem with this. If the retaliatory strike is thought to be worth keeping, it can be reflavored to not require horns (they're just really good at elbowing monsters).

Give them passive mapping 1, because minotaurs are labyrinth-roaming creature.

Oh.. wait, it would be duplicate of DDs. then remove DD

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that the dislike the developers had expressed for Tolkien had more to do with it being overdone than it being too new.

I don't really see any reason minotaurs in DCSS should have to correspond perfectly to the original myth rather than modern interpretations. It's not like DCSS takes place in ancient Greek mythology, it just draws inspiration for it (as well as many other mythologies, and other things, including Tolkien).

Quazifuji wrote:I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that the dislike the developers had expressed for Tolkien had more to do with it being overdone than it being too new.

Well, DCSS' interpretation of the Minotaur is also fairly overdone, being one of the oldest creatures in D&D. They're also found in the Narnia books (probably the inspiration for the D&D version), and featured pretty prominently in the movies. The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (a game that was criticized for featuring fantasy content that was overdone and generic) uses them similarly. Those are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head.

No, the use doesn't have to correspond exactly to the myth. But overall, I think using an original myth is better than using a crappy modern interpretation, and the developers' changes tend to imply they think similarly - another example of that would be the renaming of Kenku to Tengu.

My problem with Mi isn't of flavour but of mechanics. I think there already is a "unstoppable dedicated melee" race (Troll), compulsive headbutt is replicated by reposte, and, if you want a warrior in full armour, you can go Orc. So Mi is more of a nuance than a well defined race IMO (although the same could probably be said of Tengus and Meerfolk).

But for the race as it is, I think it's good flavour that goes well with the mechanics.

It's funny how close Crawl's minotaurs are to the opposite of the mythological minotaur. The Greek minotaur was an unintelligent monster, Crawl's minotaurs are basically human. The labyrinth was built to trap the Greek minotaur inside, in Crawl minotaurs particularly *like* labyrinths and are particularly good at navigating them.

Shtopit wrote: if you want a warrior in full armour, you can go Orc.

Well, personally I also think Beogh should be removed, and Hill Orcs along with him. The reasons given for removing Beogh are fairly convincing, and the devs more or less explicitly stated that Beogh was the only reason they didn't remove HO (way back when they removed MD).

Beogh and HO are also very Tolkien, another reason to remove them.

what the hell is this anti furry agenda. unsubbed

I am thinking chocolate, maybe raspberry vanilla though...

Shard1697 wrote:what the hell is this anti furry agenda. unsubbed

The true reason behind Mi's continued existence reveals itself. "If it could conceivably be used for furry porn it shan't be removed" seems to be an iron law of crawl development. 2017 will see the last vestiges of "Tolkien" aka normalcy removed... Elves and dwarves were beyond the pale but cats, ring wearing tentacle beasts and goddamn frogs are in the game? What the hell's next, talking squirrels? Lemurs? Battletoads?

ion_frigate wrote:This change would also entail the retooled Minotaurs losing their horns. I don't see a problem with this.

some guy a long time ago wrote:Mountain Dwarf is my go-to class for ‘armored badass’, when I want to just eschew spellcasting in favor of beating dudes in the face while waddling about in crystal plate. Sure I could go Minotaur but they can’t use helmets and I want to wear every sweet piece of armor I can. Wizard hats do not fit the ‘armored badass’ stereotype.

This proposal is obviously a stalking horse for the "bring back MD" movement.

lethediver wrote:Battletoads?

where's my turbo tunnel themed sprint

duvessa wrote:It's funny how close Crawl's minotaurs are to the opposite of the mythological minotaur. The Greek minotaur was an unintelligent monster, Crawl's minotaurs are basically human.

Yeah, minotaurs in crawl are one of the best spellcasters in the game!

Wait a sec...

Midn8 wrote:
duvessa wrote:It's funny how close Crawl's minotaurs are to the opposite of the mythological minotaur. The Greek minotaur was an unintelligent monster, Crawl's minotaurs are basically human.

Yeah, minotaurs in crawl are one of the best spellcasters in the game!

Wait a sec...

His point is that the mythological monster would not have been seen wielding weapons and wearing armor. If it were true to the mythology it would be something like a horrid cross between an Ogre and a Felid (which would almost certainly be very unfun to play).

The Tavern

Reflavour Minotaurs

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