The Tavern

Midn8 wrote:You guys clearly do not understand that regen is balanced by another despised but necessary mechanic: Food. If you recast it all the time, you will quickly run out of food from the extra 10/turn it consumes (or whatever the value is).

Unless something has changed since folks last ran the numbers on this, this is incorrect. If you use regen when resting, you'll save food -- the extra hunger/turn is more than outweighed by the smaller number of turns you'll be resting.

archaeo wrote:
Lasty wrote:I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate

We have multiple equipment slots regen fits into. You want to make it fit in your spell slots too?

Yeah, if I were proposing that change, it would be weird. But that's not a change, that's how it plays now, except stronger and with a lot more button presses. What I'm proposing is to weaken it and remove the button presses.

Removing the spell entirely would also solve the problem.

I think generally buff spells could have their own little interface like (a). You open it and you have a list of all of your charms, forms and so on, and you can choose which ones should always be on. You check the ones you want, and they activate themselves when needed. So RMsl casts itself automatically if it passes out, and Regen casts itself if you take damage.

Shtopit wrote:I think generally buff spells could have their own little interface like (a). You open it and you have a list of all of your charms, forms and so on, and you can choose which ones should always be on. You check the ones you want, and they activate themselves when needed. So RMsl casts itself automatically if it passes out, and Regen casts itself if you take damage.

How is this an improvement over not having charms in the game at all?

Regen is annoying to cast. Partial solution: make it last until it's done a full HP bar's worth of healing. Any attempted healing while already at full HP is wasted. This also adds a fun risk/reward mechanic, where you gain more benefit if you cast it at low HP, and there's a reason to spend a turn casting it in combat. It needs to track how much it's healed because just ending at full HP would encourage deliberately taking minor damage to prolong it.

Regen is a no-brainer. Solution: add a serious cost to every casting, eg. max HP loss, draining, contamination.

duvessa wrote:How is this an improvement over not having charms in the game at all?

You may want to explain your secret reasoning, if you want a decent answer.

Shtopit wrote:
duvessa wrote:How is this an improvement over not having charms in the game at all?

You may want to explain your secret reasoning, if you want a decent answer.

Cmon it ain't hard. Remove all the resistances mechanics, spells, abilities and items in crawl. Fighting a single Vault Guard on d:14 (after cleaning Lair and affordable related) is the same as fighting an hobgoblin in d:1.
When u make a complete stepup in defenses it is exactly equal to a complete stepdown in harms.

Also, when u play u are supposed to do something. If a large part of a game is about not doing something then the play experience is degraded.
Watching a bot running on your station isn't playing. Devs are trying to entertain by keeping you active while reasonably limiting zomby-like interaction. The remainder after division is the Third-party Tavern Content Production (TTCP). See? Math with winks!

On general topic, if u just remove regen then u can remove food.

Make it so you can only cast regeneration when your health is full.

Lasty wrote:Yeah, if I were proposing that change, it would be weird. But that's not a change, that's how it plays now, except stronger and with a lot more button presses. What I'm proposing is to weaken it and remove the button presses.

Removing the spell entirely would also solve the problem.

It would solve both problems. I appreciate what you're saying, I just think a weaker, permanent version has just as many flaws as the current version, just with slightly better balance. Creating a space for permacharms isn't a slippery slope I think the dev team should go down, in my opinion.

Shtopit wrote:
duvessa wrote:How is this an improvement over not having charms in the game at all?

You may want to explain your secret reasoning, if you want a decent answer.

I'm asking you to explain your reasoning because you're the one proposing a new feature.

Give it an even chance of causing confusion (like ambrosia), draining stats, or draining skills. And let one cast last until HP are full. Then it's useful for getting back to safe HP in unknown territory, but not for use after every fight.

duvessa wrote:I'm asking you to explain your reasoning because you're the one proposing a new feature.

And you're comparing to a removal of a feature. You owe him an explanation as well.

mrob wrote:Regen is annoying to cast. Partial solution: make it last until it's done a full HP bar's worth of healing. Any attempted healing while already at full HP is wasted. This also adds a fun risk/reward mechanic, where you gain more benefit if you cast it at low HP, and there's a reason to spend a turn casting it in combat. It needs to track how much it's healed because just ending at full HP would encourage deliberately taking minor damage to prolong it.

Regen is a no-brainer. Solution: add a serious cost to every casting, eg. max HP loss, draining, contamination.

Regen lasting a very long time but preventing use of healing is a really interesting trade-off. Also solves the 'having to cast it ten gorillion times' issue

Regneration works well how it is. It allows melee types to recover HP with a heal over time with moderate investment in spell casting. It perfectly fits the niche of a "HOT" that doesn't just require resting until healed. Yet it is not over-powered because it doesn't instantly restore chunks of HP.

Regen is not "annoying to cast". It's not a constant spam type spell. It's situational and it fits the niche very well.

Regen is a constant spam type spell because you always want to cast it when you're at less than maximum HP. The hunger cost is either insignificant or negative, and waiting for natural healing gives enemies more time to spawn or wander nearby. You also want to cast it before every combat because all combat has a chance of lasting more than one turn. Even when you're waiting for MP to recharge and you're already at max HP, it's probably still optimal to have regen active because a monster might show up and then you'd have to spend a turn casting it. 3MP is insignificant past the early game.

(Reposting from another thread because it is relevant here.) I just had an idea to fix regeneration: Regeneration costs a percentage amount of health to cast, and will prevent regeneration for the player above their damaged hp value after casting. Also the regeneration is faster acting. This prevents the optimal strategy from being just to cast regeneration while resting every time. Alternatively, what if it could be used as a reaction to restore some health from damage just taken?

I disagree with the way earlier post claiming regeneration isn't a top 5 spell - especially with haste removed, regeneration is probably top 3 imho. Also I wonder why everyone's so focused on casting regeneration after a fight. Sure, it might be tedious, but it's casting it before the fight that really makes it a no-brainer since it's basically equivalent to adding 10-30 hp to your character's max hp (depending on your spellpower). What race wouldn't be better if their hp aptitude was 1 higher? All characters should have regeneration.

So while I can agree it has issues, I'm also hopelessly addicted to it and please don't hurt my baby

Make Regeneration work like a weaker version of Borgnor's.

Give it significantly better regeneration rate than now, but it costs 1 max hp each cast.

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