amulet of rage is too powerful


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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 17:50

amulet of rage is too powerful

it basically lets you act like a trogger while following another god. Even at 0 evo it has a 50 percent chance which is plenty and pretty much everyone should be getting a little evo early game regardless of build.

I think either needs a much higher evo investment to succesfully use or it needs a bit of time after you put it on to use, kind of like gormund or guardian spirit which makes you keep it on.

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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 19:09

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Equipping "rage could apply post-berserk effects (slow, exhaust, chance of passing out) to the player.
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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 20:25

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Out of curiosity, what amulet would you bother swapping it with regularly?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 20:41

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

You can wear spirit shield and once you get hurt enough that your MP is gone, switch to rage(as an example). Also amulets like regen and reflection are fine to swap with it in a pinch if you want to berserk while wearing the other one the rest of the time for convenience

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 20:59

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

I wonder how big a problem this is. Rage is amazing in the early game, but having multiple useful amulets is uncommon at that stage.

Later in the game swapping to rage when the character is in trouble strikes me as dangerous. Perhaps in 0.20 with fewer consumables this is more necessary.

That leaves me with wearing something else and then pulling out rage specifically to kill a specific enemy one on one. I can imagine that can be used as a crutch for weak characters, or for people who want to min/max killing Hell/Pan bosses or something.

I don't see any harm in giving the amulet some kind of warm-up effect, but it doesn't seem important.
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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 22:15

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Later in the game swapping to rage when the character is in trouble strikes me as dangerous.
Why? Berserk is extremely powerful.

If you have potions you can quaff them of course, but you usually don't get a lot of berserk potions.

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 01:08

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Wow... I can't believe people are this turned on about going berserk. I mean, it prevents you from doing just about anything to save yourself ... it's all do or die. And then you pass out... I basically never use it. Now if you want to talk powerful item, think running around with a scarf of cloud immunity, mephitic cloud, ignite poison... Qazlal does not even come close to that. ;)

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 03:48

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Early amulet of rage pretty much guarantees your char will get to mid game. Killing strong monsters that you would have otherwise run from gives that easy exp to stay ahead of the difficulty curve. Obviously berserk loses its luster by the end game where haste/might is preferable, but its power in the early game is unmatched for pretty much 0 investment.

I think another way to nerf +rage (and +inv) would be to cause contam or some kind of malus for a failed evoke. This would force you to at least train evo to a reasonable amount before you are comfortable spamming these items.

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 05:45

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

amulet of rage is only good for a short duration. It has a very, very low chance to add more turns to rage. Unlike Trog who can extend your rage decent odds.

For example, the last berserker I played cleared 30 monsters in V:5 on one berserk. To be able to do that you have to avoid triggering any action that would considerably reduce your time in rage like moving while getting lucky on the odds and triggering more rage turns.

You can't get anywhere close to that with an amulet of rage. And, berserk is strong b/c it gives you haste and might. The drawbacks are easy to manage if you use berserk in a way that maximizes each use of it. Only danger of berserk is the small odds of paralysis if that even still happens. I'm not a code diver.
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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 06:43

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

going berserk gives you a ton of extra HP, haste, and might

if it's ever a problem you are using it at very bad times
gameguard wrote:Early amulet of rage pretty much guarantees your char will get to mid game. Killing strong monsters that you would have otherwise run from gives that easy exp to stay ahead of the difficulty curve. Obviously berserk loses its luster by the end game where haste/might is preferable, but its power in the early game is unmatched for pretty much 0 investment.

I think another way to nerf +rage (and +inv) would be to cause contam or some kind of malus for a failed evoke. This would force you to at least train evo to a reasonable amount before you are comfortable spamming these items.
If it gave the same negative effects as when berserk wears off(exhaustion, slow, maybe pass out) it would definitely prevent me from using it without evo training, that's for sure!

I definitely think it would need to hit 0% failure at some point though.

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 08:33

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

I agree with OP, it's too powerful amulet. Can we make it more situational and probably fun? For instance, make it require a number of ADJACENT monsters to activate. The number should depend on Evocations of course. Something like:
Evo 0 - you need 8 adjacent monsters to activate it
Evo 3 - 7 adjacent monsters
Evo 6 - 6 adjacent monsters
Evo 9 - 5 adjacent monsters
...
Evo 21 - 2 adjacent monsters
Evo 24 - 1 adjacent monster
Evo 27 - anytime

Chance to activate is always 100%
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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 09:49

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Shard1697 wrote:
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Later in the game swapping to rage when the character is in trouble strikes me as dangerous.
Why? Berserk is extremely powerful.

If you have potions you can quaff them of course, but you usually don't get a lot of berserk potions.

I'm not saying that it's not powerful. I'm saying that it's a double-edged sword, in the late game.

If a character is in trouble, i.e. could die over the next two turns, then berserk can be the best solution, but I doubt that's common. Often there are many other consumables, evocables, spells or and/or abilities that would help, without restricting access to spells, potions, scrolls and god abilities.

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 14:53

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

gameguard wrote:Early amulet of rage pretty much guarantees your char will get to mid game. Killing strong monsters that you would have otherwise run from gives that easy exp to stay ahead of the difficulty curve.


I don't get this argument. I mean, in my current game the only things I remember bypassing for any length of time were a couple of ghosts (until I'd cleared a level or two further down), the Royal Jelly (as always! That thing needs way more dakka than the rest of Slime:5) and the lords for Cocytus and Tartarus. Usually if I run I come back soon after with a different plan, so the XP is not an issue, and the only stuff of theirs I didn't take was what they were physically holding.

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 14:58

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Shard1697 wrote:going berserk gives you a ton of extra HP, haste, and might

if it's ever a problem you are using it at very bad times
gameguard wrote:Early amulet of rage pretty much guarantees your char will get to mid game. Killing strong monsters that you would have otherwise run from gives that easy exp to stay ahead of the difficulty curve. Obviously berserk loses its luster by the end game where haste/might is preferable, but its power in the early game is unmatched for pretty much 0 investment.

I think another way to nerf +rage (and +inv) would be to cause contam or some kind of malus for a failed evoke. This would force you to at least train evo to a reasonable amount before you are comfortable spamming these items.
If it gave the same negative effects as when berserk wears off(exhaustion, slow, maybe pass out) it would definitely prevent me from using it without evo training, that's for sure!

I definitely think it would need to hit 0% failure at some point though.

You could more smoothly and directly accomplish this by making the berserk duration be evocation dependent, in particular at very low evocations give a chance of a 0 or 1 turn berserk. I don't know that I would use a amulet of rage with 0 evocation if it would give me say, 1-5 turns of berserking, at the low end it'd be almost certain to be a net negative. (And if it was a very very long berserk at 27 evocation, it might be worthwhile using over even some of the better amulets)
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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 17:40

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Chicken wrote:I don't get this argument. I mean, in my current game the only things I remember bypassing for any length of time were a couple of ghosts (until I'd cleared a level or two further down), the Royal Jelly (as always! That thing needs way more dakka than the rest of Slime:5) and the lords for Cocytus and Tartarus. Usually if I run I come back soon after with a different plan, so the XP is not an issue, and the only stuff of theirs I didn't take was what they were physically holding.



Think about NaTm, for example, it cannot run away (even to corridor to limit fights one on one) and it is too weak to kill alone early gnoll or ogre . There is a reason why current tournament leader chose Be as background for Naga during his streak, I believe.
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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 18:15

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I'm not saying that it's not powerful. I'm saying that it's a double-edged sword, in the late game.

If a character is in trouble, i.e. could die over the next two turns, then berserk can be the best solution, but I doubt that's common.

Berserk is good whenever you can get a dangerous monster alone and want to kill it with melee attacks.

Late-game, it might not be my favorite amulet (and it's no longer great for chars with other primary damage options) but the situations it's useful in really don't change much. I guess later in the game there are more hordes of monsters, so there are fewer clear-cut wins.
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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 22:16

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

njvack wrote:
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I'm not saying that it's not powerful. I'm saying that it's a double-edged sword, in the late game.

If a character is in trouble, i.e. could die over the next two turns, then berserk can be the best solution, but I doubt that's common.

Berserk is good whenever you can get a dangerous monster alone and want to kill it with melee attacks.

I commented on that situation above, and I agree. My argument was about swapping as an emergency 'consumable'. I still think that's not often a good idea.

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Post Saturday, 3rd June 2017, 17:11

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

njvack wrote:Berserk is good whenever you can get a dangerous monster alone and want to kill it with melee attacks.


Yeah, but how often does that happen? As a general rule, there's always a stall. I mean, whenever you're fighting a big nasty monster some other monster not so tough but demanding to be killed first shows up. The key to victory seems to be redefining victory from killing the monster you want to killing the stall and running away to recover. Good luck doing that after a berserk ... I know there are people who do this, but I would think their main advantage is simply training combat a lot anyway.

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Post Saturday, 3rd June 2017, 18:48

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

I am not sure why people keep talking about berserk requiring alone monster and slow being a great disadvantage.
I have just been in new Zot for the first time, with that orb status which delays teleport and makes scrolls of blinking almost useless for slow combos like my BaBe.
I got surrounded by 8 monsters including an orb of fire (yes, 3 draconian shifters are great enemies).
I just berserked and killed 5 most dangerous monsters including oof. My math was simple: it's better to be attacked by 4.5 weakest monsters (3 multiplied by 1.5 from being slow) than by all 8.
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Post Saturday, 3rd June 2017, 18:58

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

You just have to be absolutely sure that whatever monsters are left or wander in when you pass out are not able to kill you.

Personally, I almost never use amulet of rage in the late game. I usually have some tools for not dying in battles so I don't find myself in situations where it's "go berserk or die". Amulet of rage carries a risk, and I don't want to take it.
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Post Sunday, 4th June 2017, 01:19

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

Chicken wrote:
njvack wrote:Berserk is good whenever you can get a dangerous monster alone and want to kill it with melee attacks.


Yeah, but how often does that happen? As a general rule, there's always a stall. I mean, whenever you're fighting a big nasty monster some other monster not so tough but demanding to be killed first shows up. The key to victory seems to be redefining victory from killing the monster you want to killing the stall and running away to recover. Good luck doing that after a berserk ... I know there are people who do this, but I would think their main advantage is simply training combat a lot anyway.


There is the general tactics of pulling monsters back to explored areas near the stairs. This should be used whether you want to berserk or not.

People keep saying berserk is bad in the late game and they would be correct. Even MiBe do not regularly berserk after a certain point. But what makes xxBe so easy? A big part is being able to berserk for every minor threat in the early game. Amulet of rage lets you do this with nearly zero investment that is the problem i see.
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Post Sunday, 4th June 2017, 16:08

Re: amulet of rage is too powerful

VeryAngryFelid wrote:...slow combos like my BaBe... I got surrounded by 8 monsters including an orb of fire...

Having Trog makes the downsides of 'zerking in crowds much less than the amulet. You get extended rage on kills, and with high enough piety you don't pass out. And yeah, being slowed sucks but but you can still do stuff. Being paralyzed for six turns next to Zot mobs would kill a lot of characters.
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