Remove Beogh


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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 21:10

Remove Beogh

Beogh is a badly designed god that should be removed for a variety of reasons.

1. It is a deliberate parody of Judaism and Christianity. The piety titles are all real-world religious terms and you get a water walking ability that is pretty obviously based on a biblical story. As if that wasn't bad enough, Beogh is explicitly evil in DCSS lore and is portrayed as a racist that wants to exterminate other species. Orcs have often been used as a stand-in for minorities in other fantasy works (where they are often treated as uniformly violent and evil), so it is fairly easy to draw the implication (intentional or not) that orcs are supposed to represent Jewish people. At best you can argue that instead the intent is to mock the religion of a couple billion people, which isn't really any better and has no place in a fantasy videogame.
2. It lacks clear design space. There are two other permanent ally gods. While Hep and Yred are fairly dissimilar to one another, Beogh overlaps almost entirely with Yred in terms of design and role, being a god that gives a large number of permanent, primarily melee allies (the priests and wizards suck, you're only using warlords for the most part) and rewards invocations investment. Beogh is also less good than Yred for approximately the entire pre-extended game and is available to a whopping one species, meaning the number of games where you pick Beogh for optimal play is exactly zero and the number of games where you can pick Beogh to have fun is extremely small unless you really love playing hill orcs. As the more limited of the two redundant options, Beogh is the better candidate for removal (minmay thankbait option: remove them both).
3. It has several bad, fiddly mechanics even outside the intrinsic fiddly nature of permanent allies. Recalling allies multiple times in order to get the right set of orcs and self-zapping wand of flame over water so you can get rid of your wizards and priests are not mechanics that should exist in Crawl.

While some of these problems could be resolved with a rework, Crawl's pantheon is big enough as it is. Beogh is and has always been about flavor over gameplay, the opposite direction of Crawl's design philosophy and trends, and the flavor is not actually something that anyone should want in DCSS. The best option is to just remove Beogh outright.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 22:21

Re: Remove Beogh

I very much agree with point 1. Direct parody of specific religions doesn't have a place in this game imo, and certainly not with exceptions for some religions.

For point 2, I think there's a key game-play differences between Yred and Beogh (ignoring any theme/flavor). Beogh gives you allies with relatively maximal management in terms of progression. Like Yred, you want to manage these allies so that the strongest and most desirable ones survive long-term, often at the expense of lower-quality ones. But managing ally progression and building up an optimized army is really the core gameplay idea of the god, and something that Yred doesn't specifically attempt to do in its design.

You can argue that ally building doesn't work in a game like DCSS and argue valid points about how permanent allies are bad in general (and even how all allies are bad), but DCSS has use of allies as a game mechanic, and tries to give the player a range of ways to explore its mechanics. I think the general way to "fix" Beogh is to continue to push the god in the direction of streamlined ally management without rewarding the tedious mini-games you mention. It may be that Beogh needs to have a piety system and set of abilities more based on acquiring allies, keeping 'strong' ones alive, and making these orcs progress.

For Yred, taking more "army optimization" out of the picture by reworking the way it does gifts would help. A while back ontoclasm sketched a proposal to change Yred gifts to make them have classes with specific numbers of each class gifted at a time, possibly with the class slots based on piety. That's one general idea for a direction for Yred, but I think things like that that helped move Yred further away from rewarding ally management would help.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 22:39

Re: Remove Beogh

Wow.
I think point number one alone definitely means a reflavoring is needed, and since flavor isn't a factor in this game I think it's better just to merge some of Beogh's mechanics into Yred to make them a more versatile deity and just axe Orc Jesus.
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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 23:06

Re: Remove Beogh

Beogh is bad because it's only available to one species. Just fix that please. Maybe change the titles too. Then it would be fine for anyone who enjoys that kind of permanent ally play.
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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 23:30

Re: Remove Beogh

Bad things about Beogh:
- Available only to one race, seems a pointless restriction
- Very similar to what Yred does
- Unclear inventory management rules
- Questionable why he's considered evil for the purpose of god switching

Good things about Beogh:
- Theme of monsters joining you to fight other monsters and getting stronger if they survive long enough
- Smiting; arguably duplicated by Qazlal's Upheaval, but feels good nonetheless

Things about Beogh I don't care about (unless you remove him for this exact reason):
- Parody of Christianity

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 23:43

Re: Remove Beogh

behead those who insult Beogh

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 23:45

Re: Remove Beogh

In Battle For Middle Earth, Orcs had an option to kill their own allies in order to gain XP and become stronger. That would be a way to render steaming wizards like a cod unneeded. You don't want a certain category? Have them killed by their peers. It also adds to Beogh's evil flavour.

In general, I think that Beogh now is like Cheib was some years ago: byzantine, tedious, micromanagey. With Cheib you had to drop your stuff, pray on it, choose how ponderous you wanted to be, all of that. Now you just gradually get slower and stronger, and I think it's not only much better, but the best god when it comes to having fun and general playability (survivability is another matter). Maybe Beogh will one day be like Cheib today, but there are a lot of issues with micromanagement it now has. You can't freely give weapons, and, more importantly, there are all the limitations allies have (need your LOS, cannot be managed well). It would also be nice if it would become a monster's god (for player Orcs, Ogres, Trolls, Kobolds, Demonspawns, and Undead), turning into a counter to the good gods when it comes to being exclusive.

About #1, I already said my opinion talking about Jihad: it's in the same category.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:08

Re: Remove Beogh

Beogh is awful and should probably be removed. Apart from number 1, the other points have been known for a long time.

1 can be fixed with some reflavouring if someone really thinks it's bad. There have been other complaints about the lame flavour (though I note that many people like it a lot, see this, for instance), but this is the first time I've heard about the latent anti-Semitic implications. I'm pretty sure the reason is bogus and only has been brought up because of this Jihad incident (to strike while the iron is hot, as it were), in the cause of removing Beogh anyway. A+ for the attempt, I guess.

I hope this doesn't become a routine. I have already said in the other thread that looking for foolish consistency in crawl is a mistake, and it especially shouldn't be done to prove some sort of point ("you reflavoured Jihad, therefore you should reflavour Beogh"). The reason why Jihad was reflavoured was that it took five minutes to do a search-replace, not that Crawl has to show the world that it is woke. Reflavouring Beogh would probably completely change or destroy the flavour.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:10

Re: Remove Beogh

As far as point 1 goes, I feel that just removing the water walking and making him non-evil would solve the issue well enough. While the term "messiah" has direct associations with Judaism and Christianity, I think it can sometimes work as a more general concept of a religious savior, so personally the water walking is the only part that feels like a direct reference to a real-world religion to me. If the term "messiah" were a problem, some possible alternatives could be "saint" (which is a term with Christian origins, but Saint Rokah already exists and I've definitely seen the word "saint" used in the context of fantasy religions before so I don't think it's exclusively associated with Christianity) or "savior".

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:57

Re: Remove Beogh

I hope "game design" doesn't permanently devolve to shitposts like this
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:58

Re: Remove Beogh

Messiah (or Masiah) is a term in Islam as well.

I think, by now, it has about the same association with Judaism and Christianity as Sunday holiday (or Saturday) has with the Sabbath, which is to say: not very much. For a simple illustration, here is the term applied to the Prime Minister of India.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 07:17

Re: Remove Beogh

Quazifuji wrote:As far as point 1 goes, I feel that just removing the water walking and making him non-evil would solve the issue well enough.

Water walking exists in other sources than the bible. Personally I can't see any problem with that kind of an ability (or raising dead or whatever). These are things that can happen in a fantasy setting.

I also don't see any reason to make Beogh non-evil.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 08:17

Re: Remove Beogh

Sprucery wrote:Water walking exists in other sources than the bible. Personally I can't see any problem with that kind of an ability (or raising dead or whatever). These are things that can happen in a fantasy setting.


Beogh's water-walking is a direct reference to the bible and you know it. Whether it should be removed or not is up for debate - I do think it would be silly for anyone to be offended by it and it's more just a fun joke that isn't meant in an insulting way at all - but it has nothing to do with anything else Beogh does mechanically and was very obviously included as a Jesus reference and not as a generic fantasy ability.

I also don't see any reason to make Beogh non-evil.


Well, the reason would be what OP stated - that a god who takes inspiration from real-world religions, including a pretty obvious bible reference, being evil could offend someone. It doesn't really serve any purpose gameplay-wise, so it wouldn't really do any to make him non-evil and might avoid offending someone.

Granted, whether anyone has ever actually been offended by Beogh is a different question. Personally, I think the water walking is amusing and never really interpreted as a possible anti-semetic or anti-Christian message like the OP did, and I think it's certainly way less of a stretch to be offended by it than the Sword of Jihad (and also way less politically charges), but I don't think there would really be any harm in removing the water walking and making him non evil if it's a real concern.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 11:29

Re: Remove Beogh

My main problem with Beogh has always been how fiddly it is. If you want to get the most out of the god you have to do a lot of tedious and counter-intuitive management of your allies, and if you don't perform these actions you'll end up either without allies entirely (as they get killed off) or with a chaotic swarm of allies which you have no way of effectively controlling. I'm not sure how this would be fixed in a way that doesn't end up being too much like Yred or Hep.

As to the flavour argument, even if we disregard the unfortunate real-life implications (which are a very valid concern), Beogh isn't terribly interesting in its current form of "generically evil racist". The idea of a racial deity is not inherently bad, but I'd like it if there were some more compelling reason for Beogh only accepting Orcish worshippers, perhaps something which ties in to Beogh also being excluded from the wider Pantheon. Making it the "outcast" god and inventing some compelling reason for this status would perhaps give some interesting context for the special relationship between Orcs and Beogh. I've written something about this elsewhere but I'm sure there are many ways to do this.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 11:59

Re: Remove Beogh

It's been a while since I played with Beogh, but it doesn't play much worse than Yred (for the most part). You want a few (and only a few) allies around you. So you park all of them on some level and recall a few of them as needed. There's not much tedium involved unless you try to keep all of the orcs alive at any cost (which isn't optimal since there are plenty of reinforcements). You just give them polearms and they are good.

Some people might like ally management. Non-optimal tedium isn't a big (or any) problem (see: extended). I dislike both Beogh and Yred for the same reason (allies). Yred is very strong; Beogh is ok but I haven't played enough with it to form a definite opinion. But it's not as if one has to go Beogh on a Hill Orc; there are plenty of other options.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 12:17

Re: Remove Beogh

I think that HO should be removed entirely.

1. Beogh is boring and a little bit "offending".
2. 'Tolkien's lore, blablabla, HE-removal's reasoning".
3. HO don't have any interesting racial specialities.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 13:13

Re: Remove Beogh

StupidBerserker wrote:I think that HO should be removed entirely.

1. Beogh is boring and a little bit "offending".
2. 'Tolkien's lore, blablabla, HE-removal's reasoning".
3. HO don't have any interesting racial specialities.

I think that mutually-exclusive things like races and gods don't need to be removed at all.
1. Boring is subjective, but it's offending only if you choose to be one of those never satisfied people who get their jollies from endless discussions about priviledges and whatnot.
2. D&D is a better source, where orcs are THE standard enemy type and also a playable race.
3. HO has good combat magic (I played a 'pure' HO fire elementalist once, it was fun). Not every race needs a gimmick, cmon!

I swear, one guy on this forum is a removal/nerfing freak and the rest apes him.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 17:00

Re: Remove Beogh

I do agree that a reflavoring of Beogh would not be a bad idea; we don't need an orc parody of Christianity. IMO water-walking is silly and could be removed without replacement. But! Beogh was the thing, when reading reviews of various roguelikes, that enticed me to play Crawl. I said "This game has systems support for me to be Orc Jesus? I need to see what that looks like" and have been playing ever since.

I think Beogh is very much not like other Crawl gods, and that he could still probably use some quality-of-life improvements. But! I don't think the fact that Beogh gameplay is different from most other gods is bad; it's what makes him enjoyable for me. And in my case as well, it's a case where flavor matters a great deal.

As my sig says: I'm not a very good Crawl player. I totally see the point of that the game "should" be about numerically-tuned systems working together like a great game of chess. But sometimes I like to play Crawl as an RPG, and Beogh scratches that itch extremely well for me.

So! Maybe Crawl really needs a tight focus, and to decide what kind of game it is — but I don't think so. Crawl is a goddamned huge game, and it's fine if there are parts of it that just aren't for you for various values of you.

(For example: I have been playing for seven years and have never entered a zig. Why? I have no idea. It sounds like it's not for me.)
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 17:16

Re: Remove Beogh

Personally I find the direct insult to Christianity to be hilarious, however there is no real reason for Beogh to be evil. Orcs themselves are not DCSS-evil, as they can all worship Zin, Ely, and TSO, and it's not like Beogh is any more crazy than say, Trog, who is not evil.

Water walking is kinda cool, but that design space could be taken by another god (perhaps one that specializes in water?), I feel like.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 19:42

Re: Remove Beogh

Dioneo wrote:Beogh isn't terribly interesting in its current form of "generically evil racist".
Beogh (and Crawl's orcs in general I guess) is what happens when writers who don't understand how racism works try to write a racist character, basically

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 20:41

Re: Remove Beogh

Is there any mechanical effect of Beogh's evilness other than "you'll get wrath from the good gods if you switch from them to Beogh"?

If that's all there is, there's no practical mechanical effect, because that's, um, probably not a real common god switch. And it's not like "evil" is part of Beogh's flavor.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 21:22

Re: Remove Beogh

PowerOfKaishin wrote:Water walking is kinda cool, but that design space could be taken by another god (perhaps one that specializes in water?), I feel like.


I would say that design space is already taken by flying and swimming races (and flight evokables).

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 07:22

Re: Remove Beogh

Is anyone honestly offended by point (1), or is this just a tavern reaction to the recent troll who got sword of * renamed?

However, if this must happen, the obvious change is to remove water walking, as it's the most blatantly flavored and the least relevant to the rest of Beogh gameplay.

As for the other suggestions, I think y'all should run them past the Koreans first, as they seem to be the ones who play Beogh the most.

Just because you don't like current Beogh doesn't mean he has to change. Not every god has to appeal to every player.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 15:15

Re: Remove Beogh

Rast wrote:Is anyone honestly offended by point (1), or is this just a tavern reaction to the recent troll who got sword of * renamed?

However, if this must happen, the obvious change is to remove water walking, as it's the most blatantly flavored and the least relevant to the rest of Beogh gameplay.

As for the other suggestions, I think y'all should run them past the Koreans first, as they seem to be the ones who play Beogh the most.

Just because you don't like current Beogh doesn't mean he has to change. Not every god has to appeal to every player.


I am sure there are some people who are at least vaguely annoyed by the water-walking direct religious parody thing, though I doubt many are "offended" in the way people here want to mock. Still, getting rid of that vague annoyance and an unnecessary tie to real world religions is not a bad idea.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 18:58

Re: Remove Beogh

I miss dpeg so much

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 19:05

Re: Remove Beogh

NGL, the OP's reasons for removal make for an accurate list of reasons I worship Beogh.

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 01:28

Re: Remove Beogh

As far as the religions went, I always thought Zin and Beogh were the same god looked at from different perspectives. Beogh is about the violence of mainstream religions and Zin is about their lawfulness.

Also, why don't we replace water-walking with straight-up flying? That should keep people from getting dunked in shoals while removing the obvious tie to christianity.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 02:10

Re: Remove Beogh

I did always think it was a little weird that the water-walking strictly only applied to water. I figured it would work on lava too till I tried. Although honestly, if you're trying to do anything with your orc mob the water walking can get annoying in places like Swamp and Shoals because you just wind up stranding dudes all over the map and having to recall them later.

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 06:43

Re: Remove Beogh

Hellmonk wrote:1. It is a deliberate parody of Judaism and Christianity.

Religions definitely deserve to be laughed at.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 07:04

Re: Remove Beogh

is anyone here religious and offended, or just summoning indignation on behalf of unknown others

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 12:20

Re: Remove Beogh

prozacelf wrote:I did always think it was a little weird that the water-walking strictly only applied to water. I figured it would work on lava too till I tried. Although honestly, if you're trying to do anything with your orc mob the water walking can get annoying in places like Swamp and Shoals because you just wind up stranding dudes all over the map and having to recall them later.

If you want to keep water walking as a JC reference, it would make sense to give it to your followers as well. Jesus did make his disciples walk on water(if only for a while), didn't he? +It would reduce the annoyance of current system.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 15:19

Re: Remove Beogh

fwiw i never thought beogh was supposed to be some kind of insult to christianity, i just thought it was a joke where orcs are evil and so is their religion
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 20:17

Re: Remove Beogh

yesno wrote:summoning indignation on behalf of unknown others

If by that you mean "trying to be considerate of other people's feelings, especially w/r/t their deeply held beliefs," then yes, I think some of that's going on here.

I don't have strong feelings about Beogh being in the game, though I do think that being """iconic""" goes a long way, and retaining a niche god for a niche species is okay with me. I do have strong feelings about the fact that Beogh-as-parody-of-Christianity is a political statement the game makes, and while it's not my place to decide what the devs want their game to say, it's not something that can be dismissed as unimportant.

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 04:46

Re: Remove Beogh

I'm playing through my first Beogh game and was thinking about this thread since I'd read it while it was actively being discussed. There were some people calling for waterwalking to be removed because of it's reference to Jesus. When I read that I thought "I understand where that's coming from, at the same time it sounds like a cool ability that would open up various tactical strategery and positioning somethings". As I'm finishing up Shoals I've noticed that for the most part it really doesn't (or maybe I'm just not using them I don't know), and it has the unintended consequence of seperating me from my orc army when autoexploring since the player autoexplores over deep water and the orcs can't follow. I've since realized I can disable auto exploring over deep water in the rc file, but I imagine a lot of new players don't realize this. Anyway, that's one reason to consider disabling the waterwalking specifically.
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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 04:50

Re: Remove Beogh

I'm otherwise enjoying Beogh though and would not want to see him be removed from the game. I think the fact that 1) his allies are living not undead and 2) You convert the from the dungeon and level them up instead of having them gifted and then remain at one level is sufficient to distinguish him from Yred. Also some people were wondering why he's evil. I suspect a large part of that is that you used to have to get to Orcish mines before you found an alter and in that case you might be otherwise tempted to take an early good God alter to have some early game support before converting.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 06:01

Re: Remove Beogh

Change water walking to fire/lava walking and add fire resistance.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 14:06

Re: Remove Beogh

I still think it should be changed to Beeogh and opened to all species.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 15:19

Re: Remove Beogh

Beogh isn't a god I really like playing but I'm glad it's there. Reflavor it how you want, but I think he's a big draw for new players and we'd be worse off without him.

I toyed with implementing beogh for (almost)every race as a side patch.

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amaril

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 19:33

Re: Remove Beogh

archaeo wrote:
yesno wrote:summoning indignation on behalf of unknown others

If by that you mean "trying to be considerate of other people's feelings, especially w/r/t their deeply held beliefs," then yes, I think some of that's going on here.

...

I think yesno's point was that we don't actually know devout Christians' feelings on Beogh because they haven't told us. I imagine some may be offended, but it's possible they find it amusing. It does everyone a disservice to guess without actual input.

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 19:56

Re: Remove Beogh

i'm probably not sufficiently devout for y'all's purposes, but i think beogh is mostly okay except for the titles, which are waaaay too unambiguous. i sent a PR offering less loaded titles and it got rejected because "flavor"

shout-outs to "proselytizer" being used for orcs that are incapable of converting anybody

glad to see that we only respect important religions like islam around here

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 20:27

Re: Remove Beogh

It's a bit unfortunate that the potential for an educative moment was allowed to pass with the recent artifact sword incident. We're all PR flacks and news producers now, talking about "offense" because we can't name the real transgression. Everything is about sensitivity and feelings. "Are you triggered, snowflake?" "I see some religions get respected around here!"

It can't be about cultural grievances, guys. It can't. Cultural grievance is what Fox News and talk radio do. Why are they so sure this is never going to backfire on them?

Satire and parody of Christianity has deeper roots in the arts and literature than fantasy itself by a long shot. The idea that it is somehow out of bounds in a fantasy video game is amazing to me.

That said, the OP is right: Beogh is bad and should be removed.
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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 20:54

Re: Remove Beogh

"we can't say anything without opinions from christians"
"hi i'm a christian and i think this part specifically is bad"
"shut up uneducated christian, stop crying about feelings this is a fantasy game"

I see what you're getting at, but go look up the definitions of some of those titles. Things the god has going for it:

-Pious followers can walk on water
-Pious followers can cheat death
-Encourages the conversion of other orcs
-Encourages hatred and violence towards anyone that isn't an orc
-Is evil
-Is an outsider, not tolerated by the other gods
-Uses explicitly Christian terminology

It's *really* easy to make this just an orc god and not a blatant signposted attack. Don't just tell me "calling your religion a bunch of violent xenophobic murderers has roots in the arts" and tell me it has a place in this game specifically.

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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 21:00

Re: Remove Beogh

I'm not saying you have no right to be offended. I am saying there is no useful parallel between this issue and the sword thing.
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Post Friday, 19th May 2017, 21:52

Re: Remove Beogh

So the thread's from january, but seems to be blowing up again today, and it's obviously an issue a lot of people care about. Still I'm not sure how much more needs to be said, so I'll try to keep it relatively short.

Overall, I like beogh, and I do think the mechanics are unique and interesting. They are also tedious, and I don't play beogh super often, but I'll usually give it a run once a tournament, for the god points. So overall, I'd like beogh to stay. I do agree with point #1 about the flavoring, and wouldn't mind seeing it's flavor reworked considerably. Really, just removing water walking would have almost no impact on gameplay at all and is consistent with so many other sources of flying being removed.

As for Beogh being evil, I think the best solution is to just outright remove the notion of "evil" from crawl entirely. No gods are flagged evil, and it's up to the players to decide, if they even care about the issue at all. The "good gods" will hit you with wrath when you abandon them and move to any other non-good god. Instead of being "the good gods" they just become three gods which are allied, and don't wrath you if you move to another one of the good gods, but any other god is treated equally.

Alternatively, just remove all of the "good gods" switching mechanics.

Alter-alternatively, make it an intended feature with god cabals - a set of gods which are allied and lets players switch between them without wrath. Then you could have the current good gods, maybe a demon/undead cabal, a mystical cabal, etc. Probably more work than it's worth, but if we like the mechanic we should use it across many gods, and not just have a one-off group of 3 that acts differently from everyone else.

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Post Saturday, 20th May 2017, 00:08

Re: Remove Beogh

Doesnt wrote:i'm probably not sufficiently devout for y'all's purposes, but i think beogh is mostly okay except for the titles, which are waaaay too unambiguous. i sent a PR offering less loaded titles and it got rejected because "flavor"

shout-outs to "proselytizer" being used for orcs that are incapable of converting anybody

glad to see that we only respect important religions like islam around here


I didn't mean to imply that I had some test of devoutness that I was going to apply to anyone who feels offended. I was trying to make the counterpoint that the people who I think are most likely to be offended, very devout Christians, might possibly find Beogh benign and amusing instead.

I trust that you're sincere.

Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 20th May 2017, 06:30

Re: Remove Beogh

never mind
Last edited by yesno on Saturday, 20th May 2017, 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 20th May 2017, 06:33

Re: Remove Beogh

never mind

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 20th May 2017, 19:43

Re: Remove Beogh

Then I guess the Pope isn't devout enough, since he still is a San Lorenzo fan.
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Post Sunday, 21st May 2017, 01:06

Re: Remove Beogh

Whether Christians are offended by Beogh's Christian overtones should have no bearing on the removal of these overtones, I think. I wasn't particularly offended by Sword of Jihad, and Sharanga appearing in a game can't possibly be offensive to any human being who isn't making an active, concentrated effort to be offended at things, but these things are renamed because Crawl wants to take a "no explicit real world cultural references" stance.

Beogh has elements that are explicit references to a real world culture, and hence these elements must go. That seems pretty clear-cut to me. He can of course still be the god of orcish superiority and whatnot, though that also has some really horrid gameplay consequences.

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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 23rd May 2017, 01:18

Re: Remove Beogh

This seems like political correctness run amok. (Not that Crawl developers would dare to have a "run amok" power in the game nowadays, since that might be taken to refer to a real world culture! Indeed, now that I think of it, how DARE they make a cultural appropriation of berserkergang that fails to show respect for the deep spirituality and philosophy of the ancient - and modern - Vikings as they made their bloody sacrifices...) I think it should be obvious that terms like "priest" and "apostle" are used generically in reference to many religions. And Beogh is clearly not practicing Christianity!

I already noticed one reduction of Beogh paraphernalia - the statues no longer incur attacks when random unaffiliated wizards blow them up. Which I think is a step in the wrong direction -- when wizards get powerful enough, they like to tick off Beogh, they should get him to come down for some hand to hand. I'm thinking Beogh should not be a real god at all but a tough orc with a Helm of Godhood or something that allows players to do some cool thing like run minigames on levels they aren't currently on where they can use MPs to set up altars, convert random monsters, set various goals and conducts for their faith, and have their followers clear off the level for them. ;) Then they can come by and collect any loot ... and of course the adulation of ecstatic followers.

If you want to fix Beogh then propose some fixes, but don't just gripe about the problems as a pretext to get him censored.
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