Simplified Str damage bonus


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 08:11

Simplified Str damage bonus

Instead of a %-based formula for increasing base weapon damage by Str which no one really understands, simplify it so:
- your weapon's base damage is increased by 1 for each 2 points of Str above 10.
- above bonus can't be higher than base damage (so QB gets max. 5 bonus at 20 Str, GSC max. 22 bonus at 54 Str).

(thanks Sil)
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luckless, nago, Sar

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 10:07

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

I imagine that formula would give extremely overpowered results (as far I know, base damage is multiplicative with weapon skill and fighting)

But +1 to simplify it, maybe treating like 3 points = 1 slay or things like that
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 13:11

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

nago wrote:I imagine that formula would give extremely overpowered results (as far I know, base damage is multiplicative with weapon skill and fighting)

Maybe not quite so much as you think! In the current system, you get 1 point of additional base damage per 2.6 points of Str with a 15 base damage weapon. (On a quick blade, the rate is 1 per 7.8 Str; on a UC 27 troll, it's 1 per 1.08.)

So, the OP's proposal would be a big buff to low damage weapons, a moderate buff to high damage weapons, and a big nerf to (especially Tmut) unarmed. Since imo low damage weapons could use a buff and Tmut unarmed could use a nerf, I think it's worth considering!

edit:
nago wrote:But +1 to simplify it, maybe treating like 3 points = 1 slay or things like that

Maybe this is better, but the current rate is more like 1 to 1.5 Str per 1 slay for two-handers at high skills, so if you went that way you'd have to make skill increase damage more (maybe not such a bad thing!). On the whole though I really hope something along these lines gets traction. Better balance and simpler math are within reach!

edit 2:
Thinking about this a bit more, n Str = 1 slay wouldn't actually simplify anything. Any flat number you could give would either give overpowered results at low levels or underpowered results at high levels; to adjust for this, you'd have to add complexity somewhere else. That's the beauty of the OP's n Str = +1 base damage proposal, since that just flattens the impact of base weapon damage (subject, crucially, to the cap).
Last edited by luckless on Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:10, edited 2 times in total.

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nago

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 14:24

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

As someone who builds most characters around pumping str as much as possible(http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 001349.txt) i cant help but ask:
What is the str damage bonus formula?
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 14:56

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

effectively, weapon damage is:

1d(base weapon damage * [1 + {Str-10}/39}] * [1 + {weapon skill}/50] * [1 + {fighting skill}/60])
plus
1d(slaying + enchantment + 1) - 1

(The Str, skill, and fighting multipliers are actually randomized themselves in each case, but these are their expected values. And the math is a bit different for Str < 10 but who cares about those cases?)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:05

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

So OP suggests replacing (base weapon damage * {Str-10}/39}]) with ({Str-10}/2}). Basically all weapons will be treated as triple sword in old formula. Why is it better?
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dynast

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:17

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

VeryAngryFelid wrote:So OP suggests replacing (base weapon damage * {Str-10}/39}]) with ({Str-10}/2}). Basically all weapons will be treated as triple sword in old formula. Why is it better?

Because short blades are too weak, and statue form is too strong. Among other things.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:42

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

luckless wrote:Because short blades are too weak, and statue form is too strong.

I was going to say "duhhh" but then i realised i actually agree with this. Not using a weapon is stronger than short blades. Almost everything about weapon types are nothing but a trap to get new players to use the wrong type and notice they are not doing enough damage, but then again, someone will shove some data on my face showing how its worth to train those weapons so i dont know what to say.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:42

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

luckless wrote:Because short blades are too weak, and statue form is too strong. Among other things.


Why do we need different weapon categories and tranformations if they are roughly equal to all other weapons? I mean it is good that short blades are weak and transformations are strong (I would move statue to level 7-8 if it's too powerful for level 6).
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nago

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 16:17

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
luckless wrote:Why do we need different weapon categories and tranformations if they are roughly equal to all other weapons? I mean it is good that short blades are weak and transformations are strong (I would move statue to level 7-8 if it's too powerful for level 6).

I don't think the OP's proposal would make all these close to "roughly equal"--strong weapons would still get more benefit from skill and, past the cap, from Str too. Transformations would still significantly outdamage weapons, just not by insane amounts.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 18:37

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

VeryAngryFelid wrote:So OP suggests replacing (base weapon damage * {Str-10}/39}]) with ({Str-10}/2}). Basically all weapons will be treated as triple sword in old formula. Why is it better?

Because the current formula is a little too complicated, and Dex is a no-brainer for SB users?

Dex is currently a no-brainer anyway.
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 19:34

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

kuniqs wrote:Because the current formula is a little too complicated, and Dex is a no-brainer for SB users?

Dex is currently a no-brainer anyway.


SB users can wear shadow dragon armour or even CPA if they want.
Dex used to be a no brainer but currently Str is more useful for most characters.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 15th January 2017, 03:14

Re: Simplified Str damage bonus

Adding about 15 new str breakpoints is bad imo

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