How come amulets of rage are still swappable?


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 749

Joined: Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 15:20

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 14:51

How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

So we have a strong, onetime effect, with a built in exhaust-timer to prevent abuse- and get no penalties at all for equipping/unequipping it. Why?

Mostly relevant if one has the only other amulet that has no penalties for swapping, amulet of reflection. But then its a nobrainer.

For this message the author le_nerd has received thanks: 5
cerebovssquire, duvessa, nago, removeelyvilon, VeryAngryFelid

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 15:52

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

SHHHHHHH
You shall never see my color again.

For this message the author dynast has received thanks: 4
Elitist, Leszczynek, nago, NhorianScum
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 284

Joined: Friday, 19th August 2016, 21:21

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 17:41

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Too late, they've read it by now.
make food great again

Halls Hopper

Posts: 80

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd January 2017, 21:47

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 18:10

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

The penalties for equipping it is not wearing an objectively better amulet and letting it occupy an inventory slot in the first place.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 18:19

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Yeah, that one amulet that gives you haste, 150% HP and 1d15 additional damage is pretty damn good, you'd be an idiot to ever wear rage over it.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 4
cerebovssquire, Leszczynek, Shard1697, VeryAngryFelid

Spider Stomper

Posts: 247

Joined: Monday, 10th November 2014, 21:32

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 19:03

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Sar wrote:Yeah, that one amulet that gives you haste, 150% HP and 1d15 additional damage is pretty damn good, you'd be an idiot to ever wear rage over it.


You're thinking of the Hat of the Bear, it's a common mistake

Spider Stomper

Posts: 212

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 00:52

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 20:19

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

I think it is balanced -as said before- by the consumption of a slot. It also has a 50% fail rate with no Evoke, and all of the normal berserk penalties.

It does do a good imitation of trog early, though
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 749

Joined: Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 15:20

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 21:33

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

@Sar: Its only +1d10 damage, not 1d15. Much weaker /s

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 10th January 2017, 21:39

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Rage is more powerful than harm for melee characters and we do have a heavy penalty for harm.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 10:36

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

le_nerd wrote:@Sar: Its only +1d10 damage, not 1d15

No, Berserk is 1d10 and that one amulet that you wear instead of rage (because it's objectively superior) is 1d15. Easy to confuse!

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
cerebovssquire

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 13:12

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Rage fell off my radar. I agree it should have a penalty. What penalty should it have? I was thinking exhaust on equip, but that would, ironically, let you use it to block *rage.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1579

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 13:44

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

To counter that, have it also cause rage (or, if rage is impossible, pass out) when removed. Would that work?
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif, 3DsMoOka

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 13:53

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Rage is ~inherently problematic~ as an amulet since instead of conveying a constant and clear advantage/disadvantage like other amulets do it just gives you an activated ability.

A really, really good activated ability.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 5
Cimanyd, dracos369, dynast, Lasty, njvack
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 15:48

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Yeah, passing out on equip/unequip (or both) would be thematic and pretty much eliminate tactical swapping.

But I'm also in agreement with Sar -- "Rage is a holdover from back when amulets were strict buffs; it also duplicates a consumable and a god ability. I'd probably remove it and make !Rage more common if needed.

Having the amulet give *Rage as well as +Rage might be a reasonable "this is dangerous but might have some kinds of uses" tradeoff if keeping it is really warranted.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 6

Joined: Monday, 5th August 2013, 07:33

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 17:21

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

How about just moving it to an armour slot? Evocable armour already exists with cloak of invisibility. It might be kinda neat to start adding more regular ego evocables, like boots of blinking or something. Things like this already exist in the form of artefacts.

Alternatively just remove it, non-Trog berserk is already available in the form of potions. A reliable form of berserk for a non-Trog follower doesn't seem too necessary.

For this message the author Spectrina has received thanks: 2
Cimanyd, Sar
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 253

Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27

Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 18:43

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

removeelyvilon wrote:Berserk works better as a consumable than an ability. Don't know why, but that hasn't stopped anybody in the past.
Infinite berserk ins obvously problematic and bad for the game.
Thus Remove Trog and items with evokable wrath; increase rage pot ratio to compensate.


Image


Seriously though, +1 for preventing tactical swapping with very brief para and keeping the amulet. We need more amulets worth putting on, not less.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1111

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2013, 23:23

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 02:20

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Lasty wrote:Rage fell off my radar. I agree it should have a penalty. What penalty should it have? I was thinking exhaust on equip, but that would, ironically, let you use it to block *rage.


+1 level of berserkitis, obviously.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 720

Joined: Friday, 6th September 2013, 09:17

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 13:02

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Why not just same-duration slow + exh? Simple and efficient IMO.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 856

Joined: Friday, 31st October 2014, 10:03

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 13:59

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

+Rage should always paralyze after it wears out so people wouldn't be tempted to use it. Paralysis is an effective design in Ziggurats to discourage people from doing them so it works.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

For this message the author ThreeInvisibleDucks has received thanks:
asdu

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Thursday, 12th June 2014, 06:56

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 16:05

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Seconded on adding it as a (body) armour ego. That removes tactical swapping, while also making the choice of body armour more interesting.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 212

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 00:52

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 19:24

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Currently, there aren't very many good hand slot egos for melee characters. Maybe rage could fit in there?

Currently, the slots have the following (not including randarts):

Head: Sinv, Inteligence, Guardian spirit?
Hands: Archery, +3 Str, +3 Dex
Body: Rf,Rc, Rn, Rf+Rc, MR, Rpois, Archmagi, + all dragon armour effects
Boots: Running, Flight, Stealth
Cloak: Invis, MR, Rpois

The ones which seem balanced to me are cloak (many options which aren't nececarily all useful) and Head (Sinv V Int). Body is too cramped, you always use boots of running if available, and there are no good gloves.

Adding rage to cloaks would probably be good, because it wouldn't be an auto-pick.

Gloves also don't have any good egos, and they could be a halfway ego on boots (before running, but better than nothing)

Putting it on body armour would be an error.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 247

Joined: Friday, 5th August 2011, 13:18

Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 05:36

Re: How come amulets of rage are still swappable?

Why not make amulets take 3 turns to swap like body armour?

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.