Dynamic Monsters branch


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 01:01

Dynamic Monsters branch

Hey folks, come try out a new branch on CBRO: Dynamic Monsters. In this branch, each turn that a monster moves while tracking you, it has an increasing chance to gain the "bezotted" (temporary name) status permanently. Once it has this status, it gains +20% HD, HP, and damage. It gets 2 more energy towards movement and attacks (e.g. a speed 10 monster becomes a speed 12 monster), and +2 AC/EV.

The premise is that in this branch, luring is not necessarily the right option always. Players will have to choose to a greater degree between bringing monsters to safe terrain and fighting weaker monsters.

Also, energy randomization has been removed.

This is pretty experimental, and I expect various things will get tweaked as I get feedback. Please give it a try and lemme know how it goes.

Oh, and don't bother mentioning that this is harder than current crawl, because that's intended. Ideally it'll be harder and more interesting.

Edit: so far, no one has won.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 7
bel, chequers, Cimanyd, Leszczynek, Shtopit, Steel Neuron, VeryAngryFelid

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 2076

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 01:59

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Is there a way to play this offline?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 03:19

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Yep, but you'll have to download and compile the branch.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 10

Joined: Friday, 18th November 2016, 12:59

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 03:23

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Got a MiFi with the most ridiculous start ever, so far so good, only a few bezotted unseen horrors that seemed really strong.

Killed a lot of dpeg's ghosts in this run.

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 2076

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 03:41

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Lasty wrote:Yep, but you'll have to download and compile the branch.

Sure, I can do that. Link to git repository etc.?

Edit: I'm guessing this is the branch?
Last edited by bel on Thursday, 12th January 2017, 04:41, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Snake Sneak

Posts: 92

Joined: Thursday, 28th July 2016, 04:11

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 04:37

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Lasty wrote:Edit: so far, no one has won.

Now you've made me want to try to win this with a spriggan. I'm not sure that would provide any useful feedback, though.
remove Siegurt's signature

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1737

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 06:18

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

f0rbidden wrote:Killed a lot of dpeg's ghosts in this run.


So, no different than vanilla crawl.

Spoiler: show
<3 dpeg

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 08:42

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

As I've expressed on IRC before, I'm loving the reasoning behind this branch. I think there's a lot that can be done with this concept, if we generalize it to "monsters become recognizably worse based on certain trigger conditions". I can think of a lot of things to bind that too, distance from their home vault, LUA triggers, branch conditions, hypothetical "doom clock", excessive luring...

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 12:59

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

While giving this a try i thought to myself "ok, i can see this working, so long they are not stupid enough to give it to uniques".
Spoiler: show
sig.jpg
sig.jpg (147.84 KiB) Viewed 9901 times

grind.jpg
grind.jpg (138.88 KiB) Viewed 9901 times

I went out of my way to tackle sigmund until he became bezotted because i thought i could win against him, it doesnt matter that i couldnt because i just conjured flame and walked away, meanwhile grinder bezotted himself by paralyzing me and blinking around like a idiot.
I kept every other enemy on the game so far from bezotted by stairdancing, except a hobgoblin on d:1 who went bezotted a turn after spotting me.
You shall never see my color again.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 13:02

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Yeah, uniques shouldn't be affected by this. Dynamic monsters should be a way to reduce tedium by making luring not the optimal solution in every scenario, but for uniques, you need to use the whole bag of tricks.

Stairdancing should not counter bezotting but instead trigger it earlier.

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 2076

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 14:35

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

I tried a MiFi, found an altar of Yred on D:2, an amulet of faith and armour of the dragon king in Lair and got 2 runes by rolling over everything. I didn't take my chances with a bezotted Lernaen Hydra though :P and ninja'ed the rune.

Dump
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20-a0-434-gba6e212 (console) character file.

dynacrawl the Severer (Minotaur Fighter)           Turns: 33040, Time: 04:00:05

Health: 156/156    AC: 38    Str: 21    XL:     17   Next: 52%
Magic:  25/25      EV: 14    Int:  5    God:    Yredelemnul [******]
Gold:   2904       SH: 13    Dex: 20    Spells: 16/16 levels left

rFire  . . .      SeeInvis .    a - +11 hand axe {chop, rF- rC++ MR- Stlth+}
rCold  + + +      Gourm    .    p - +9 armour of the Dragon King {rPois rF+ rC+ MR+}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    +    c - +0 shield
rPois  +          Spirit   .    (helmet restricted)
rElec  .          Reflect  .    i - +0 cloak {rC+}
rCorr  .          Harm     .    L - +2 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
MR     ++...      Clarity  +    Y - +1 pair of boots
Stlth  ..........               K - amulet of faith
                                m - ring of protection from magic
                                v - +4 ring of evasion

@: no status effects
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, clarity
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer
a: Recall Undead Slaves, Injury Mirror, Animate Dead, Drain Life, Enslave Soul,
Renounce Religion


You are on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Yredelemnul.
Yredelemnul is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 31 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ossuary, Ice Cave and Volcano.

You have collected 3887 gold pieces.
You have spent 983 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - the +11 hand axe "Sehy" (weapon) {chop, rF- rC++ MR- Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It makes you vulnerable to fire.
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 u - a +0 broad axe of venom
 w - the +11 rapier "Ohegh" {pierce, +Fly rF+ Str+2 Dex-4}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It affects your dexterity (-4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It lets you fly.
 B - an uncursed blowgun
 V - the +8 mace "Caost" {crush, rElec rF+ MR+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Missiles
 b - 12 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 c - a +0 shield (worn)
 i - a +0 cloak of cold resistance (worn)
 p - the +9 armour of the Dragon King (worn) {rPois rF+ rC+ MR+}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 L - a +2 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
 Y - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 m - a ring of protection from magic (right hand)
 v - a +4 ring of evasion (left hand)
 C - an uncursed ring of resist corrosion
 K - an amulet of faith (around neck)
Wands
 f - a wand of acid (?/15)
 k - a wand of acid (8/15)
 y - a wand of iceblast (10/15)
 D - a wand of clouds (?/9)
 F - a wand of paralysis (?/24)
 S - a wand of lightning (?/15)
 U - a wand of digging (8/24)
 W - a wand of enslavement (?/24)
 Z - a wand of polymorph (2/24)
Scrolls
 e - 11 scrolls of teleportation
 n - 6 scrolls of recharging
 q - a scroll of brand weapon
 r - 32 scrolls of remove curse
 s - 14 scrolls of identify
 x - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
 z - 5 scrolls of fog
 G - 3 scrolls of summoning
 H - a scroll labeled PENGUR GUBOPON
 I - 3 scrolls of blinking
 J - 3 scrolls of fear
 N - 4 scrolls of enchant weapon
 O - 5 scrolls of enchant armour
Potions
 g - 9 potions of might
 h - 6 potions of berserk rage
 j - 2 potions of cancellation
 o - 19 potions of curing
 t - 8 potions of heal wounds
 A - 2 potions of ambrosia
 E - 4 potions of haste
 M - 11 potions of agility
 P - 4 potions of resistance
 Q - a potion of invisibility
 T - 7 potions of magic
Comestibles
 d - 16 bread rations
 l - 16 fruits


   Skills:
 + Level 15.3 Fighting
 + Level 18.2 Axes
 + Level 17.3 Armour
 + Level 11.5 Dodging
 * Level 12.1 Shields
 + Level 12.5 Invocations
 + Level 6.7 Evocations


You have 16 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:5            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:4       Spider (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:11            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (0/5) D:13
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Ru
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Beogh

Shops:
Orc:2 !}**

Annotations:
D:8 exclusion: statue
D:15 large shield with louise zombie
Lair:6 exclusion: oklob plant
Swamp:4 Lernaean hydra


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.


Message History

Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
You don't know any spells.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Okay, then.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Char dumped to 'morgue/dynacrawl.txt'.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Save game and exit?

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##        ##....@Z?.♣♣≈≈≈♣     ##
          #P.......V.♣♣♣♣♣     #.
          ##.........♣         ##
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You can see a friendly vampire knight (wandering), a friendly hell rat zombie
and a friendly swamp worm zombie (wandering).

Vanquished Creatures
  Jorgrun (Swamp:4)
  A frost giant (IceCv)
  2 emperor scorpions
  A ghost moth (Spider:4)
  An orc warlord (Orc:1)
  A spark wasp (Spider:4)
  A fire dragon (Lair:6)
  Erolcha (Orc:1)
  2 vault guards (D:13)
  3 ghost crabs
  A catoblepas (Lair:6)
  6 hydras
  3 alligators
  4 two-headed ogres
  A centaur warrior (D:13)
  3 death yaks (Lair:5)
  3 orc high priests (Orc:2)
  A tengu warrior (D:15)
  2 spriggans
  A hell knight (Volcano)
  A salamander mystic (Volcano)
  2 unseen horrors
  7 swamp dragons
  2 spriggan druids
  9 orb spiders
  An orc knight (Orc:1)
  2 orc sorcerers
  7 ugly things
  18 wolf spiders
  A moth of wrath (Spider:4)
  5 salamanders (Volcano)
  A manticore (D:13)
  6 cyclopes
  7 black mambas
  5 torpor snails
  A gargoyle (D:13)
  6 centaur skeletons
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  13 spiny frogs
  3 rime drakes
  5 komodo dragons
  7 demonic crawlers
  A tengu conjurer (D:14)
  10 hornets
  15 jumping spiders
  A meliai (D:14)
  A queen bee (Spider:3)
  6 trolls
  16 polar bears
  Grinder (D:4)
  9 bog bodies
  7 slime creatures
  10 hippogriffs
  A tyrant leech (Swamp:2)
  3 blink frogs (Lair:4)
  5 dream sheep (Lair:6)
  A tarantella (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  A vampire (D:13)
  A spriggan (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  24 tarantellas
  A centaur simulacrum (D:15)
  Sigmund (D:4)
  2 shadows
  A wraith (D:13)
  44 redbacks
  42 yaks
  4 hogs (D:7)
  5 wyverns
  2 basilisks
  A human (D:7)
  15 vampire mosquitoes
  A redback simulacrum (D:14)
  8 wargs
  A hungry ghost (D:11)
  A soldier ant (D:10)
  2 acid dragons (D:14)
  14 swamp worms
  3 insubstantial wisps (Swamp:1)
  7 porcupines
  11 water moccasins
  An eye of draining (D:14)
  23 orc warriors
  6 swamp drakes
  A black bear (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  2 black bears (D:12)
  2 phantoms
  8 ogres
  19 wolves
  9 centaurs
  10 crocodiles
  A big kobold (D:11)
  13 bullfrogs
  11 scorpions
  15 killer bees
  6 wights
  An electric eel (Lair:2)
  A howler monkey (D:12)
  5 crimson imps
  A bullfrog zombie (D:12)
  5 hounds
  2 quasits
  4 jellies
  4 centaur zombies
  31 orc priests
  19 orc wizards
  2 bullfrog skeletons
  4 iguanas
  6 worker ants
  4 hell rats (Lair:4)
  A killer bee zombie (D:6)
  4 big kobold zombies (Ossuary)
  2 hound zombies
  A hound skeleton (D:9)
  2 mummies (Ossuary)
  12 gnolls
  4 scorpion zombies (Ossuary)
  A river rat (D:4)
  14 adders
  3 shadow imps
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  An adder skeleton (D:6)
  7 worms
  3 dart slugs
  8 leopard geckos
  69 orcs
  9 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  6 hobgoblins
  8 jackals
  5 quokkas
  2 ball pythons (D:4)
  7 bats
  7 frilled lizards
  2 gnoll zombies (Ossuary)
  3 goblin zombies (Ossuary)
  4 hobgoblin zombies (Ossuary)
  2 jackal zombies (D:5)
  11 kobolds
  3 kobold zombies (Ossuary)
  A leopard gecko skeleton (D:4)
  An orc zombie (Ossuary)
  A quokka skeleton (D:4)
  10 rats
  2 plants (Lair:6)
870 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Arachne (Spider:3)
  3 emperor scorpions
  2 ghost moths (Spider:4)
  Louise (D:15)
  An orc warlord (Orc:1)
  The ghost of dynacrawl the Severer, a journeyman MiBe of Trog (D:12)
  2 very ugly things
  An entropy weaver (Spider:4)
  2 spark wasps (Spider:4)
  An ettin (D:15)
  9 hydras
  2 ghost crabs
  2 vault guards (D:13)
  3 centaur warriors
  A catoblepas (D:9)
  5 two-headed ogres
  Erica (D:9)
  An ogre mage (D:15)
  An alligator (Swamp:3)
  2 death knights
  An orc high priest (Orc:1)
  6 skeletal warriors (D:15)
  An unseen horror (D:13)
  A deep troll (D:15)
  A spriggan druid (Swamp:4)
  A torpor snail (Lair:6)
  3 shambling mangroves
  A deep elf archer (D:15)
  An orc knight (Orc:1)
  15 orb spiders
  6 swamp dragons (Swamp:4)
  A lindwurm (Lair:6)
  A salamander (Volcano)
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:1)
  A cyclops (D:15)
  13 wolf spiders
  2 manticores
  2 ugly things (D:14)
  2 centaur zombies (D:13)
  Joseph (D:9)
  4 spiny frogs
  A black mamba (Lair:6)
  2 centaur skeletons
  A guardian serpent (Lair:6)
  An efreet (D:9)
  4 komodo dragons
  8 demonic crawlers
  A freezing wraith (D:15)
  A yaktaur (D:15)
  23 jumping spiders
  2 meliai (D:14)
  A tengu conjurer (D:15)
  13 hornets
  2 trolls
  A wolf spider simulacrum (D:14)
  A meliai (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  6 tyrant leeches
  2 polar bears (IceCv)
  A blink frog (Lair:4)
  3 hippogriffs
  2 slime creatures
  A bog body (Swamp:4)
  A dream sheep (Lair:6)
  6 wyverns
  34 redbacks
  11 tarantellas
  A vampire (D:15)
  5 spriggans
  2 wraiths (D:15)
  2 steam dragons
  2 basilisks
  5 yaks
  6 vampire mosquitoes
  A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  2 insubstantial wisps (Swamp:1)
  6 swamp worms
  5 water moccasins (Lair:6)
  A swamp drake (Swamp:4)
  2 porcupines
  A sky beast (D:14)
  10 orc warriors
  A black bear (D:11)
  3 wolves (Lair:1)
  4 ogres
  A centaur (D:11)
  A crocodile (Lair:4)
  2 bullfrogs
  3 scorpions
  A killer bee (Spider:3)
  2 wights (D:14)
  2 howler monkeys (D:12)
  16 orc priests
  A jelly (D:11)
  3 orc wizards
  An iguana (D:14)
  A worker ant (D:9)
  A mummy (Ossuary)
  7 orcs
  A quokka (D:10)
  A goblin zombie (Ossuary)
  7 fungi
  14 plants (Lair:6)
360 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A vampire knight (Spider:3)
  A wolf spider zombie (Spider:3)
  A phantasmal warrior (Lair:6)
  A dwarf zombie (Swamp:4)
  An emperor scorpion zombie (Spider:1)
  A swamp worm zombie (Swamp:4)
  A catoblepas zombie (Lair:6)
  6 redback zombies
  3 hydra zombies
  A demonic crawler zombie (Spider:2)
  2 ugly thing zombies (D:14)
  4 jumping spider zombies
  A tarantella zombie (Spider:3)
  An ettin zombie (D:15)
  6 flying skulls
  A vampire (Swamp:2)
  A wraith (IceCv)
  A black mamba zombie (Lair:6)
  2 spriggan zombies (Swamp:4)
  A two-headed ogre zombie (D:15)
  An elf zombie (D:15)
  A deep troll zombie (D:15)
  3 spiny frog zombies
  3 hornet zombies (Lair:6)
  A blink frog zombie (Lair:4)
  6 swamp dragon zombies (Swamp:4)
  3 vampire mosquito zombies
  A hippogriff zombie (Lair:6)
  3 salamander zombies (Volcano)
  3 wyvern zombies
  A cyclops zombie (D:14)
  7 yak zombies
  4 water moccasin zombies (Lair:6)
  A troll zombie (Orc:1)
  A wight (Lair:6)
  A yak skeleton (Lair:3)
  5 wolf zombies
  5 centaur zombies
  2 ogre zombies
  A soldier ant zombie (D:10)
  2 bog body skeletons (Swamp:4)
  4 killer bee zombies
  A crocodile zombie (Lair:3)
  A sky beast zombie (D:14)
  A hound zombie (D:9)
  A worker ant zombie (D:9)
  2 scorpion zombies
  4 swamp drake zombies (Swamp:4)
  13 orc zombies
  An adder zombie (D:9)
  2 kobold zombies (D:11)
  3 orc skeletons
  8 fungi (Lair:6)
  24 plants (Lair:6)
157 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1387 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | dynacrawl the Minotaur Fighter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
    32 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Axes
    56 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/27 MP: 1/1
   325 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 28/33 MP: 2/2
   978 | D:2      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
   996 | D:2      | Became a worshipper of Yredelemnul the Dark
  1129 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Axes
  1134 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 34/41 MP: 3/3
  1297 | D:2      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  1497 | D:3      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  1628 | D:3      | something gained the power of zot.
  1668 | D:3      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  1757 | D:3      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  1796 | D:3      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  1874 | D:3      | Reached * piety under Yredelemnul
  2080 | D:4      | Noticed Sigmund
  2100 | D:4      | Killed Sigmund
  2100 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  2100 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  2100 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 18/48 MP: 4/4
  2100 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 21/56 MP: 5/5
  2162 | D:4      | Noticed Grinder
  2252 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Axes
  2379 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  2390 | D:5      | Got a warped rapier
  2391 | D:5      | Identified the +11 rapier "Ohegh" {pierce, +Fly rF+ Str+2 Dex-4} (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  2607 | D:4      | Got a dazzling hand axe
  2664 | D:4      | Identified the +11 hand axe "Sehy" {chop, rF- rC++ MR- Stlth+} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  2669 | D:4      | Killed Grinder
  2669 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Axes
  2669 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  2669 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 63/63 MP: 6/6
  3028 | D:4      | Reached ** piety under Yredelemnul
  3193 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Axes
  3458 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 71/71 MP: 7/7
  3503 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3832 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  4078 | D:6      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  4337 | D:6      | Reached *** piety under Yredelemnul
  4481 | D:6      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4484 | D:6      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  4574 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Axes
  4766 | D:7      | Found a sand-covered staircase.
  4772 | Ossuary  | Entered an ossuary
  4830 | Ossuary  | something gained the power of zot.
  5164 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 71/81 MP: 10/10
  5169 | D:7      | something gained the power of zot.
  5171 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
  5858 | D:8      | Reached **** piety under Yredelemnul
  5983 | D:8      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  6291 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Axes
  6367 | D:8      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6671 | D:9      | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (3 flying skulls)
  6798 | D:9      | Noticed Erica
  6804 | D:9      | Killed Erica
  6804 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  6804 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 49/91 MP: 9/12
  6904 | D:9      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  7007 | D:9      | Noticed a catoblepas
  7024 | D:9      | Killed a catoblepas
  7102 | D:9      | Reached skill level 12 in Axes
  7125 | D:9      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  7249 | D:9      | Noticed Joseph
  7264 | D:9      | Killed Joseph
  7384 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
  7429 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  7487 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  7590 | D:10     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a mummy)
  7621 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7631 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre
  7942 | D:10     | You fall through a shaft for 2 floors!
  7944 | D:12     | Noticed dynacrawl's ghost (journeyman MiBe)
  7948 | D:12     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
  7954 | D:12     | Killed a brown ugly thing
  8078 | D:12     | Killed an unseen horror
  8128 | D:11     | Noticed Psyche
  8129 | D:11     | Noticed Psyche
  8129 | D:11     | Psyche changed into Psyche the ogre
  8133 | D:11     | Killed Psyche the ogre
  8133 | D:11     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 91/99 MP: 14/14
  8145 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8146 | D:11     | a bezotted orc gained the power of zot.
  8149 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  8155 | D:11     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (2 flying skulls)
  8413 | D:11     | a bezotted orc gained the power of zot.
  8598 | D:11     | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  8995 | D:11     | Reached skill level 13 in Axes
  9287 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9421 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
  9624 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging
  9644 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (5 flying skulls)
  9941 | Lair:1   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 10014 | Lair:1   | Killed a one-headed hydra
 11599 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 11622 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 11658 | Lair:3   | Found a dark tunnel.
 11669 | Volcano  | Entered a volcano
 11689 | Volcano  | Noticed a salamander mystic
 11698 | Volcano  | Killed a salamander mystic
 11710 | Volcano  | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 11711 | Volcano  | Noticed a hell knight
 11726 | Volcano  | Killed a hell knight
 11868 | Volcano  | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/108 MP: 16/16
 12526 | Lair:3   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 12538 | Lair:3   | Killed a one-headed hydra
 12580 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (4 flying skulls)
 12611 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 14 in Axes
 13301 | Lair:4   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 13383 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a wight)
 13431 | Lair:4   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 13445 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 13625 | Lair:4   | a bezotted blink frog gained the power of zot.
 13733 | Lair:4   | Killed a nine-headed hydra
 13734 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (4 flying skulls)
 13786 | Lair:4   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 13796 | Lair:4   | Killed a nine-headed hydra
 13937 | Lair:4   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 13946 | Lair:4   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 14071 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a wraith)
 14131 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 14608 | Lair:5   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 14618 | Lair:5   | Killed a one-headed hydra
 14919 | Lair:5   | Noticed a death yak
 14930 | Lair:5   | Killed a death yak
 14946 | Lair:5   | Noticed a death yak
 14947 | Lair:5   | Noticed a death yak
 14966 | Lair:5   | Killed a death yak
 14966 | Lair:5   | Reached ***** piety under Yredelemnul
 14971 | Lair:5   | Killed a death yak
 14971 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 88/116 MP: 17/17
 15346 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 15481 | Lair:6   | Got a jewelled mace
 15482 | Lair:6   | Identified the +8 mace "Caost" {crush, rElec rF+ MR+} (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 15494 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a wraith)
 15533 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 15 in Axes
 15605 | Lair:6   | Found a frozen archway.
 15633 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 15915 | IceCv    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a wraith)
 16000 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 16007 | IceCv    | something gained the power of zot.
 16026 | IceCv    | Killed a frost giant
 16419 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 16553 | Lair:6   | Reached ****** piety under Yredelemnul
 16581 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 17058 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 127/127 MP: 19/19
 17300 | Lair:6   | Paralysed by a hornet for 3 turns
 17321 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 16 in Axes
 17565 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 17567 | Lair:6   | Found a runed door.
 17576 | Lair:6   | a bezotted torpor snail gained the power of zot.
 18034 | Lair:6   | Gained mutation: You possess an exceptional clarity of mind. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 18275 | D:12     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 18286 | D:12     | Killed dynacrawl's ghost
 18429 | D:12     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a ghoul)
 18492 | D:12     | a bezotted orc wizard gained the power of zot.
 18831 | D:13     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 18925 | D:13     | Identified Perghud's Papyrus of Flight
 19063 | D:13     | You fall through a shaft!
 19116 | D:13     | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 19152 | D:13     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire knight)
 19565 | D:13     | a bezotted hornet gained the power of zot.
 19633 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 19649 | D:13     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a profane servitor)
 19757 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 19766 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a bone dragon)
 19854 | Orc:1    | Noticed an orc warlord
 19870 | Orc:1    | Noticed Erolcha
 19882 | Orc:1    | Killed Erolcha
 19888 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Invocations
 19899 | Orc:1    | Killed an orc warlord
 20088 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 20237 | Orc:1    | a bezotted orc warrior gained the power of zot.
 20242 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire knight)
 20377 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 20435 | Orc:1    | Noticed an orc warlord
 20452 | Orc:1    | Killed an orc warlord
 20548 | Orc:1    | Your ally Erolcha died
 20549 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 20690 | Orc:1    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 20803 | Orc:1    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a profane servitor)
 21173 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 21381 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 21654 | Orc:2    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 126/136 MP: 19/21
 22025 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 22048 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 22297 | Orc:2    | Found Nucyd's General Store.
 22297 | Orc:2    | Found Utamoik's General Store.
 22353 | Orc:2    | Found Vanoc's Gadget Boutique.
 22353 | Orc:2    | Found Lohyin's Distillery.
 22449 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of might for 56 gold pieces
 22449 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of cancellation for 112 gold pieces
 22449 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of berserk rage for 70 gold pieces
 22449 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of agility for 56 gold pieces
 22449 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of haste for 140 gold pieces
 22745 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of random uselessness for 18 gold pieces
 22745 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of brand weapon for 360 gold pieces
 22745 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of summoning for 171 gold pieces
 23136 | D:14     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a skeletal warrior)
 23574 | D:14     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a ghoul)
 23635 | D:14     | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 23992 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 24010 | D:15     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 24168 | D:15     | something gained the power of zot.
 24177 | D:15     | Noticed Louise
 24202 | D:15     | Killed Louise
 24208 | D:15     | Reached skill level 17 in Axes
 24261 | D:15     | Noticed Sonja
 24262 | D:15     | Noticed Sonja
 24262 | D:15     | Sonja changed into Sonja the ogre
 24267 | D:15     | Killed Sonja the ogre
 24295 | D:15     | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a ghoul)
 24566 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 24788 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 24793 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 24793 | Spider:1 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 25028 | Spider:1 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 25735 | Spider:2 | a bezotted jumping spider gained the power of zot.
 25740 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a skeletal warrior)
 25817 | Spider:2 | a bezotted redback gained the power of zot.
 25985 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a skeletal warrior)
 26050 | Spider:2 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 126/146 MP: 23/23
 26070 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 26633 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire knight)
 26764 | Spider:3 | something gained the power of zot.
 27157 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a phantasmal warrior)
 27527 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 27837 | Spider:3 | Noticed Arachne
 27852 | Spider:3 | Killed Arachne
 27894 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a ghoul)
 28033 | Spider:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Spider Nest
 28075 | Spider:4 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 28342 | Spider:4 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a skeletal warrior)
 28613 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 29505 | Spider:4 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot
 29704 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire knight)
 29807 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 30674 | Swamp:2  | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a vampire)
 30695 | Swamp:2  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 154/154 MP: 25/25
 31159 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 31445 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 18 in Axes
 31690 | Swamp:3  | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 32029 | Swamp:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Swamp
 32218 | Swamp:4  | Noticed Jorgrun
 32227 | Swamp:4  | Killed Jorgrun
 32723 | Swamp:4  | Noticed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra
 32733 | Swamp:4  | Your ally Jorgrun died
 32760 | Swamp:4  | something gained the power of zot.
 32760 | Swamp:4  | something gained the power of zot.
 32769 | Swamp:4  | the bezotted 27-headed Lernaean hydra gained the power of zot.
 32781 | Swamp:4  | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a flayed ghost)
 32908 | Swamp:4  | Got a decaying rune of Zot

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------+-----
Axes           |  3     4  5     7  8  9 11 12 13 14 15 16 17    18 | 18.2
Fighting       |     4     5     6     7  9    10 11 12 13 14    15 | 15.3
Armour         |           4     5  6  7  8  9 10 12 14 15 16 17    | 17.3
Invocations    |                       3  5  6  7     8 10 11 12    | 12.5
Evocations     |                             3  5              6    |  6.7
Dodging        |                                4  6  8  9 10 11    | 11.5
Shields        |                                            8 11 12 | 12.1

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: War axe           |   109 |    78 |    22 |    29 |       |       ||   238
       Headbutt          |    13 |     9 |    45 |   100 |   317 |   210 ||   694
       Hand axe          |       |     3 |   252 |   430 |  1075 |   768 ||  2528
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |     4 |       |       ||     4
       Mace              |       |       |       |       |    98 |    33 ||   131
       Broad axe         |       |       |       |       |    33 |       ||    33
Invok: Animate Dead      |       |       |    11 |    46 |    65 |    50 ||   172
       Animate Remains   |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Recall Undead Sla |       |       |     1 |     6 |    10 |     6 ||    23
       Stop Recall       |       |       |       |     1 |     9 |     6 ||    16
 Abil: Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |    11 |     3 |     4 ||    18
  Use: Potion            |       |     1 |       |     2 |     2 |     1 ||     6
       Scroll            |       |    10 |    10 |    11 |     9 |     5 ||    45
 Stab: Paralysed         |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
       Distracted        |       |       |       |     5 |    28 |    18 ||    51
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |     4 |    11 |    31 |    45 |    19 ||   111
       Fruit             |       |       |     1 |       |       |     1 ||     2
       Meat ration       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 |       ||     3
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     4 ||     6
       Pizza             |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Beef jerky        |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Armor: Scale mail        |    18 |       |       |       |       |       ||    18
       Chain mail        |    20 |    30 |    71 |    84 |       |       ||   205
       Plate armour      |       |       |     9 |       |       |       ||     9
       Skin              |       |       |       |     6 |       |       ||     6
       Gold dragon scale |       |       |       |   107 |   554 |   438 ||  1099
Dodge: Dodged            |    23 |    18 |    20 |    82 |   322 |   385 ||   850
Block: Shield            |    40 |    37 |    82 |   175 |   446 |   454 ||  1234



I'll try something weaker, like OpTm.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 10

Joined: Friday, 18th November 2016, 12:59

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 16:39

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Just won as a MiFi in the game I mentioned, only saw one bezotted unseen horror, so for OP combos I guess it wont change much, but I can see weaker combos and casters receiving a lot of pain with the modification as it is.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 20:21

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

After playing the branch for a bit longer, I realized finding a solution to the tracking problem might be a bit trickier than it seems, because you don't want to punish the player when they legitimately want to be running away.

I think the problem with luring is only when you run away from a monster while being at full resources (HP, MP) with the objective of engaging under better terms from the start. I wish there was a clear way to differentiate those two cases.

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6131

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 20:39

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Suggestion, replace ood spawns with ever increasing chances of bezotment the more time you spend on a level.
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 309

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 22:25

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Steel Neuron wrote:because you don't want to punish the player when they legitimately want to be running away.

Why not?

Allowing disengagement methods to exist whose effectiveness isn't tied to forward-exploration based consumable generation trivializes Crawl.

Staircase escapes need to go the way of circlelos and energy randomization.

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duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6131

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 22:42

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Implojin wrote:
Steel Neuron wrote:because you don't want to punish the player when they legitimately want to be running away.

Why not?

Allowing disengagement methods to exist whose effectiveness isn't tied to forward-exploration based consumable generation trivializes Crawl.

Staircase escapes need to go the way of circlelos and energy randomization.


If you eliminate all escape options, then crawl loses all possibility of threat evaluation, and becomes a simple coin flipping contest. That doesn't mean that retreating and using stairs to escape *are* the only options, but dismissing them as strictly non beneficial to them game is misleading.

Suggesting that all escape options need to be tied to consumables implies either that sufficient consumables will be guaranteed to disengage from all combats that it is not beneficial to fight, or it is entirely luck based whether you will be able to disengage when faced with an untenable combat, personally i think that either one of those options trivializes crawl, significantly more than the status quo.
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 309

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 23:26

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Siegurt wrote:If you eliminate all escape options, then crawl loses all possibility of threat evaluation, and becomes a simple coin flipping contest.

Is anyone suggesting this?

Siegurt wrote:Suggesting that all escape options need to be tied to consumables implies either that sufficient consumables will be guaranteed to disengage from all combats that it is not beneficial to fight, or it is entirely luck based whether you will be able to disengage when faced with an untenable combat, personally i think that either one of those options trivializes crawl, significantly more than the status quo.

Or it implies that somewhere between those two extremes a balance point exists where enough hard escape consumables are *probably* being randomly generated for an experienced player to use them to survive truly dangerous combat situations (OODs, uniques), while juggling positioning and available abilities to minimize incoming damage the rest of the time, while players who aren't using such tactics effectively (or maybe even players who are just having poor item generation this run!) will be faced with a dearth of consumables and find themselves having a game where escapes are difficult to impossible (that they might just lose!).

This theoretical balance point sounds a lot to me like game depth, rather than luck, and nudging future development towards a point where survival is hardlinked to itemgen also sounds a lot to me like how Crawl was intended to be played, rather than the current degenerate situation where players can largely ignore game difficulty through the use of just walking away™ and stairdancing.

Y'know, either way.

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Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 23:52

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Bezotting becomes trivial(in fact, aside from the 2 first uniques and one of josephine's ghosts) it was nonexistent during my run. It did change how i normally play though, having to play under the hypothesis that a dangerous enemies might appear in the corner, forcing me to avoid noise and optimize mp consumption while hugging stairs and kiting from the edge or outside of LoS. That becomes even more true on end vaults, since you just dont want to see more enemies than you can kill.

Bezotting does make the game more harder and just like hellcrawl, for the worse. Hellcrawl got rid of most of what is considered tedious, but it makes up for that by forcing any optimal player to constantly reposition and stairdance through the game.

Bezotting doesnt get rid of anything tedious, just adds to the pile, bezotted enemies are not interesting, specially when the enemy with a higher chance of bezotting is a already threat.

Just add a clock to the game already.
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 00:05

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

dynast wrote:Just add a clock to the game already.

Please don't. I'd hate to see a character run out of time.
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 00:12

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Sprucery wrote:
dynast wrote:Just add a clock to the game already.

Please don't. I'd hate to see a character run out of time.

That's what food is supposed to do though... in theory if you play too slowly you are supposed to run out of time and die. Clearly no one wants an actual progression clock in crawl
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 00:55

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Implojin wrote:Or it implies that somewhere between those two extremes a balance point exists where enough hard escape consumables are *probably* being randomly generated for an experienced player to use them to survive truly dangerous combat situations (OODs, uniques), while juggling positioning and available abilities to minimize incoming damage the rest of the time, while players who aren't using such tactics effectively (or maybe even players who are just having poor item generation this run!) will be faced with a dearth of consumables and find themselves having a game where escapes are difficult to impossible (that they might just lose!).

This theoretical balance point sounds a lot to me like game depth, rather than luck, and nudging future development towards a point where survival is hardlinked to itemgen also sounds a lot to me like how Crawl was intended to be played, rather than the current degenerate situation where players can largely ignore game difficulty through the use of just walking away[TRADE MARK SIGN] and stairdancing.

Y'know, either way.


Ther isnt an "in between" random and not-random.

"Good odds" is still luck based, not skill based.

Suvival being (completely) hardlinked towards a randomly generated probability is just a slot machine, not a game.

That being said, it *appears* your propsed recommendation is that player skill be used to mitigate the need for escapes, not to determine the need to use them.

Presently, 90% of player skill is in threat assessment, 10% is in 'tactics' where tactics can be summed up as '1. don't let things beat on you unnecessarily, 2. in particular don't let things hit you that you don't get to hit back, 3. be particularly careful to not let things disable you, 4. given the choice of two different things bearing on you, choose the one that does less damage, 5. find a way to do damage to things in a way that doesn't let them retaliate'

If you purpose to remove the 90% of player skill, (that being, should I engage or run away) and replace it with some kind of skill based damage mitigation, i would like to hear how you plan to accomplish that, do you have a mechanic in mind or do you perhaps think that the existing skill used for threat assessment is unimportant? (It is true that my 90/10 split is entirely subjective, maybe you think it goes the other way, i don't know)

I think that if something fills the void where threat asessment and running away live now, it could plausibly be interesting, i just don't know what that would be.
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 01:03

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Is there a possibility for this feature to be in a separate game mode instead of regular Crawl?

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 02:50

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

I ditched the MiFi and played an OpTm of Fedhas. I'm just about to try for my first rune and I almost have statue form castable, so I think the hardest part of the game is over. My impressions:

(a) Like hellcrawl, noise and stairs are more important. Upstairs are even more OP now that you can reduce monsters getting bezotted.
(b) Bezotted enemies are dangerous, but this doesn't really fix luring. I simply don't venture into vaults which are deathtraps, and shout instead. For instance, I got catoblepas/death yak ending of Lair and the demonspawn ending of Orc. I simply lured all of them to a couple of oklobs near the entrance.
(c) You want to lure weaker enemies even more. Here's a typical scenario. You spot a weak enemy and attract its attention. It shouts; you duck behind a corner and kill it. Meanwhile, other enemies wander towards the noise (but aren't hunting you - so are not bezotted). Rinse and repeat.

Some ways these issues can be fixed (in addition to using the bezotting status). I am not sure if the cure is worse than the disease, but still:
(a) Do something about upstairs. Here is one idea I gave a few days ago - tie upstairs to a consumable if a monster is hunting you.
(b) Another idea I gave some time ago: an enemy shouting alerts all surrounding enemies to your location, instead of simply attracting them to the noise. In my opinion, this may fix some garden variety situations, but this would be unworkable in many vaults because they're deathtraps and are not really meant for you to be fighting near them. I don't know how to fix this issue; perhaps reduce monster HD (based on some function of tension) to compensate.
(c) An idea in a different direction is for the bezotted status to spawn durably summoned monsters behind you, so your retreat is cut off. Again, this may need some nerf to the summoned monsters so that the game remains playable.
(d) A hybrid between (a) and (c) - the bezotted status spawns durably summoned monsters near stairs.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 05:39

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

bel wrote:(a) Like hellcrawl, noise and stairs are more important. Upstairs are even more OP now that you can reduce monsters getting bezotted.
(b) Bezotted enemies are dangerous, but this doesn't really fix luring. I simply don't venture into vaults which are deathtraps, and shout instead. For instance, I got catoblepas/death yak ending of Lair and the demonspawn ending of Orc. I simply lured all of them to a couple of oklobs near the entrance.
(c) You want to lure weaker enemies even more. Here's a typical scenario. You spot a weak enemy and attract its attention. It shouts; you duck behind a corner and kill it. Meanwhile, other enemies wander towards the noise (but aren't hunting you - so are not bezotted). Rinse and repeat.


I haven't tried this branch, but I had no doubt that this is how it would turn out.
If you want less luring, why not just make more monsters >10 speed? Why not generate more open levels? What's wrong with simplicity?

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 06:14

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

The simple solutions don't really work too well. Increasing monster speed would probably help in some cases but not fix luring. It's good to lure with a Naga even in the current game. If anything, one tries to explore even more carefully with a Naga to keep the option of retreat open.

The root of the "problem" is being able to retreat to a safe area (which often means near upstairs). This is why I think the "solution" (if one thinks this is a problem) must address upstairs and/or spawn monsters in "safe" or "cleared" area.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 06:29

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Another tweak on the basic idea of the branch which may be worth trying out.

Bezotted status should depend inversely on tension. The current version actually discourages fighting lots of monsters at once -- which means that it encourages luring single monsters.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 10:24

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Gotta say, I respect the attempt to actually do something about luring here. I'll give the branch a whirl when I get home.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 13:22

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Since nobody wants a clock to push them foward and instead wants to take their sweet time to bore themselves to death, why not just reward the player instead? spawn chests of loot into groups of enemies that vanish if you leave their area, have a chance that there may be a trap that requires turns to be disarmed or just let the player blow it up on their faces if the players chooses to steal the chest and run.
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 16:54

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

If you want to really reduce the importance of luring as a strategy, you have to go for a purely linear game with no upstairs, or you have to make bailing on a floor be of some consequence. There is no other way. As a few other people said this patch basically makes you play like you're playing Hellcrawl where you hug the stairs, and are always carefully managing turns enemies have in LoS like you're playing Infra Arcana and want to minimize shock. Now, you can't really have non-persistent levels like in *bands, unless you reduce the amount of experience gained from killing enemies as more are killed - so the only real option is to remove upstairs. So non-linearity and backtracking has to be broken. Here is an outline of how you could do it:

1. Remove all upstairs. This means doing away with persistent levels.
2. Remove the rune-gating on Zot. Runes are now purely a scoring mechanism.
3. Reduce all rune branches to 1 floor and make them special floors like in Doomrl. We have already conceded that the end-vault is where all the action is several versions ago when runelock was added, since this was done to make S end vaults sufficiently Special and prevent the over-accumulation of experience in Vaults:1-4, because these branch ends were harder than Vaults:1-4. So passing on a rune branch means a loss of potential experience and items.
4. Add a per-floor clock like in Infra Arcana, so that taking too long on each level starts doing bad things to you (permanently). You can call it getting Zotted if you want. Make using certain items increase this timer.
5. Shrink the size of floors. The dominance of kiting enemies and stair-hugging is largely due to huge size of floors.

This would require a few other small changes to make inventory management reasonable, like gold-ifying books and consolidating some similar items - like consolidating rings of strength and dexterity into (weak) rings of slaying and evasion, making wand charges stack, and so on, and probably increasing the rate of regeneration of HP and MP. But it would get rid of excessive luring and stair-hugging as a strategy, while still letting you use it from time to time if you need to, and providing a progression clock without being too annoying or requiring excessive LoS management. LoS management, while a strategy that can be interesting, would get annoying if you had to apply it constantly.

In theory, we have a progression clock in the form of food. We could simply set a timer, far sooner than 200M turns, after which the game ends. And yet no one seems to actually want a long-term progression clock, as seen from this thread. This actually seems understandable, since almost no one likes to lose the game because of something they did 4 hours ago. People who want to lose the game because of an error made 4 hours ago can go play Brogue, a game which is practically founded on losing due to an (unknowable) error made in choice of reward from D:1-5 vaults.

The current long-term progression clock also accomplishes nothing, as has been well known for several versions, due to being intertwined with other systems, and explicitly being allowed to do nothing due to food dropping in the form of corpses. I can only conclude that the food clock was not really meant to do much other than be there for posterity in the first place, or was copied over from Nethack long ago without any real thought, or both. Why not go for a floor-to-floor progression clock instead?
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 17:46

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

tabstorm wrote:If you want to really reduce the importance of luring as a strategy, you have to go for a purely linear game with no upstairs, or you have to make bailing on a floor be of some consequence. There is no other way.

This would be a sufficient condition, but I am not at all sure that this is necessary. For instance, one simple way to eliminate luring is to simply anchor (some) monsters to a fixed point; so you have to go meet them, instead of them coming to you. This requires neither linearity nor removing upstairs. One could say that this is really making bailing on a floor to be hard, but if the whole dungeon is like this, one can't bail on them all. Of course, I am not at all sure that this is good design, but it's merely a thought experiment.

Other points:
(a) One only aims at reducing luring, not eliminating it completely. Some amount of luring is fine; it is a legitimate tactic as long as it's not OP/abusable.
(b) Smaller floors with the same number of upstairs would mean that you're closer to the upstairs on the whole floor. I guess this is one way of reducing luring, but it seems to be like treating the disease by killing the patient.
(c) Your proposal sounds like it would be a very different game. Not sure if there's appetite for such a radical change.
(d) I don't think a significant fraction of Brogue games become unwinnable based on what you chose in early vaults - they might become harder though. There are also commutation altars deeper down where you can often switch builds.
(e) Clocks are one way to handle luring - a per-floor progression clock sounds an idea worth exploring, but not sure how it will be set/balanced among different races/backgrounds/gods.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 21:54

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

tabstorm wrote:If you want to really reduce the importance of luring as a strategy, you have to go for a purely linear game with no upstairs, or you have to make bailing on a floor be of some consequence. There is no other way. As a few other people said this patch basically makes you play like you're playing Hellcrawl where you hug the stairs, and are always carefully managing turns enemies have in LoS like you're playing Infra Arcana and want to minimize shock. Now, you can't really have non-persistent levels like in *bands, unless you reduce the amount of experience gained from killing enemies as more are killed - so the only real option is to remove upstairs. So non-linearity and backtracking has to be broken.

Some measure of nonlinearity can be preserved through the use of branching paths. A linear progression does need to be enforced, but by introducing a randomized shuffle (in terms of floor subtypes that will be generated for each upcoming section) to the available forward path selection and generating multiple such exits per floor (the player can only choose one) while pulling from an availability pool that's larger than the total game length for each subsection (possibly also make the forward types dependent on past pathing choices within each game), you have a recipe for an overall structure that allows for player choice, can be reasonably different from game to game, and still functions in a system with no backtracking.

One example of a game using a limited form of such branching:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fox_(video_game)#Gameplay

A previous post talking about one possible design for using this kind of system in Crawl here:
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17545&p=289558#p289558

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 22:07

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

bel wrote:
tabstorm wrote:If you want to really reduce the importance of luring as a strategy, you have to go for a purely linear game with no upstairs, or you have to make bailing on a floor be of some consequence. There is no other way.

This would be a sufficient condition, but I am not at all sure that this is necessary. For instance, one simple way to eliminate luring is to simply anchor (some) monsters to a fixed point; so you have to go meet them, instead of them coming to you. This requires neither linearity nor removing upstairs. One could say that this is really making bailing on a floor to be hard, but if the whole dungeon is like this, one can't bail on them all. Of course, I am not at all sure that this is good design, but it's merely a thought experiment.

Is changing monster AI against the design principles of Crawl? Expanding on your point here, I think it's very difficult to create a game that's tactically interesting beyond the dimensions Siegurt mentioned above when pretty much every monster follows the script "use random ability if possible else move towards player/move like bat." On the other hand, you could make luring monsters into hallways much more dangerous if monsters refused to follow you or, better yet, reacted by splitting up and trying to pin you in on both sides.

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 02:48

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Any evaluation of this branch is going to depend on what your vision for consumables is. I can think of several options that could plausibly be the intention of the current consumable system (including god abilities etc):
1. The game is reliably winnable without using consumables. Consumables are only needed to make up for tactical mistakes, or for sheer convenience. They just exist to make the game easier. (This is where DCSS is right now in practice, but that doesn't mean it was the intention)
2. The game is not reliably winnable without using consumables, so they must be a part of standard tactics. As a result, the focus of the game is attrition.
3. There is no particular design reason for the game having consumables, aside from stuff like "other roguelikes have them", "they're cool", etc.

Keep in mind that consumables necessarily introduce attrition, even in case 1 or 3, and DCSS already has a lot of attrition mechanics: food, mutations, the remaining forms of item destruction, rotting, piety with most gods...
"Luring" and "running away", even to another level, are fundamentally similar actions: they're taken in order to postpone a fight until it becomes more favourable. It could become more favourable because of a terrain change or it could be because you went somewhere else and got a bunch more xp and equipment, but the motivation behind either one is the same. It doesn't make sense to go after one but not the other.
In 1. you definitely want to get rid of these behaviours altogether (but ideally not repositioning) since they make your tactical set pieces drag out and/or remove the danger from them.
In 2. you might want to still allow them if the player has to use a consumable to get them.



Asking for "smart" (i.e. unpredictable) monster AI is pretty much asking for a different game. Manipulating monster actions, and planning for them before they're taken, is the core of tactics in DCSS. Or if you're asking for more ranged AI or group AI or retreating AI, consider that so far every core change to AI behaviour to make it "smarter" has made the monsters easier to fight, not harder, for people who know how the AI works (examples: ranged AI and group AI).

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 08:34

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

duvessa wrote:Any evaluation of this branch is going to depend on what your vision for consumables is. I can think of several options that could plausibly be the intention of the current consumable system (including god abilities etc):
1. The game is reliably winnable without using consumables. Consumables are only needed to make up for tactical mistakes, or for sheer convenience. They just exist to make the game easier. (This is where DCSS is right now in practice, but that doesn't mean it was the intention).

The game is reliably winnable without using any potions, scrolls, wands, evocables or god abilities? Even if this were true of some highly skilled player and/or for some backgrounds/races/gods and/or playing extremely carefully, I can't imagine that it would be true for 99% of the playerbase and/or combos and/or playing "normally".

It seems to me that number 2 is (or ought to be) the commonsense vision for consumables in crawl. The game will throw up sitautions in which you need to use a consumable to survive with high probability. The exact one to use depends on your character and the amount of risk one is willing to tolerate. Even if this is not the case in practice in all phases of the game, I don't see why it shouldn't be the ideal towards which one wants to strive.

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 09:20

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

bel wrote:The game is reliably winnable without using any potions, scrolls, wands, evocables or god abilities?
I believe so, though it's not very fun to play that way and it's not true for all species/background combination.

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 18:48

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

I tried this with vp and it didn't have much effect for me, since i had batform. i think bezotted monsters should gain ranged attacks... like a bezotted yak starts breathing fireballs 8)
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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 22:32

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

So after a bit more playing with this branch I don't really notice the dynamic monsters much, though I was playing a powerful character (VSGl) that could afford to move toward enemies. Since weak characters rely on luring and "optimal" play to make up for being weak, this change seems to explicitly hurt weak starts.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 04:13

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

One other suggestion if this goes in: Have some kind of icon for bezotted monsters. When I play on webtiles I don't like to read the text box or enemy listing unless I have to, so it would be useful to have an icon indicating that a monster is bezotted. With that said, I hardly noticed any bezotting at all after the early game. it was sort of in the back of my head during early game and Lair, where I was worried about bezotted hydras without any teleport, but i managed to avoid the only one I saw at a sufficiently low XL to kill me. I think the design of the early game, which is focused on avoiding unkillables, might not be compatible with this patch.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 05:25

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

tabstorm wrote:One other suggestion if this goes in: Have some kind of icon for bezotted monsters. When I play on webtiles I don't like to read the text box or enemy listing unless I have to, so it would be useful to have an icon indicating that a monster is bezotted.

A colored aura around the monster tile would be nice for this, if it can be done visually in a way that doesn't clash with clouds.

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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 15:14

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

If a gnoll can bezot one turn after noticing you, that's bad -- and I hope not an intended increase in game difficulty unto itself. IMHO start the bezotting chance at 0% and start ticking up after X turns, where X is initially enough time to walk up to a monster and kill it, but eventually goes down to zero with time spent on the level.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 18:57

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

tabstorm wrote:One other suggestion if this goes in: Have some kind of icon for bezotted monsters. When I play on webtiles I don't like to read the text box or enemy listing unless I have to, so it would be useful to have an icon indicating that a monster is bezotted. With that said, I hardly noticed any bezotting at all after the early game. it was sort of in the back of my head during early game and Lair, where I was worried about bezotted hydras without any teleport, but i managed to avoid the only one I saw at a sufficiently low XL to kill me. I think the design of the early game, which is focused on avoiding unkillables, might not be compatible with this patch.

Having an icon would definitely be nice. I'm hoping we'll get one in soon if the experiment continues.

I don't mind people seeing few bezotted monsters, given that the branch's goal isn't "make everyone deal with bezotted monsters," but rather "penalize certain behaviors with bezotted monsters". So the question is: did you do much luring or retreating? Did you adapt your behavior, and if so, was the adapted behavior more or less fun than how you normally play?

The early game should still be about avoiding monsters that pose significant danger, and I would hope that in this branch bezotted monsters or the threat thereof would incentivize players to skip levels more often, especially in the early game. This branch also resolves the endless pillar dance of the early game character who had things go a bit too wrong -- but it resolves it by forcing the player to fight or die, which probably means more dying. If that happens at a bad level and it's the only thing bad about an otherwise good idea, there are ways to address it.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 21:49

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

I only adapted my behavior a little around hydras, by which I mean I hoped that I didn't see a hydra.

Normally when you see something like a hydra, you run away and go up the stairs. This time I... ran away and went up the stairs, while hoping it didn't get bezotted, as I didn't have the wands to deal with it I think I also took a few more risks with ogres, using nets that I would normally save, because they would probably get bezotted as i tried to run 30 squares to the stairs. Other than that, I played the same as always - mash o/tab with heavy armor and axes, until I get low enough on HP to have to consider an escape option or a reposition. But, I was playing an overpowered combo (VSGl) so luring is irrelevant, as I can run up to everything and bash it without much concern. If I was playing a weak combo or one that relied more on spells, I would likely hug the stairs more so that I can escape to regenerate MP. The problem here is that luring is something you do with really weak characters that cannot handle more than one monster at once, or that can become effectively helpless when their MP bar reaches 0, so it's an indirect nerf to spellcasters and hybrid-types.

Like I was saying, having monsters that are mostly unkillable at their typical depth, that must be fled from, might not be compatible with this sort of solution. For what it's worth, some other roguelikes don't really have unkillables, but escaping is more difficult and there are penalties for getting surrounded by enemies, sil is an example of this.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 22:44

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Playing the game under the Hypothesis of dangerous enemies without ever facing said enemies is very fun and rewarding, cant wait to see it in trunk.
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Post Tuesday, 17th January 2017, 22:57

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Can't solve luring without solving stairs

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Shard1697

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Joined: Saturday, 5th December 2015, 06:56

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 16:14

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Just beat it with a GrBe, and lost with several other builds. I feel like this was a well intentioned patch that had a bunch of bad consequences.

Key example: hexes, charms based characters being much less viable while the herpaderp no-brainer builds (high armor tanks, high dps conjurers) are relatively unaffected. This is bad.

I really hope a solution can be found that distinguishes luring from simple retreating. Not sure if that's actually possible, but if it can't be done, better to retain the status quo. Losses to bezotted monsters feel shitty, and bezotting itself (in my experience) never happened because I was trying to lure a monster to a 100% safe area. It always seemed to happen when I was retreating from a losing battle. Maybe inversely linking bezotting to tension somehow would be a good interim solution.

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Rast

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 04:04

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

IMO This patch is not doing well its original purpose,
because it affects only gameplay of already weak combos,
and overpowered combos are still almost not affected.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 06:15

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

f0rbidden wrote:Just won as a MiFi in the game I mentioned, only saw one bezotted unseen horror, so for OP combos I guess it wont change much, but I can see weaker combos and casters receiving a lot of pain with the modification as it is.
tabstorm wrote:Since weak characters rely on luring and "optimal" play to make up for being weak, this change seems to explicitly hurt weak starts.
tabstorm wrote:The problem here is that luring is something you do with really weak characters that cannot handle more than one monster at once, or that can become effectively helpless when their MP bar reaches 0, so it's an indirect nerf to spellcasters and hybrid-types.
papilio wrote:IMO This patch is not doing well its original purpose,
because it affects only gameplay of already weak combos,
Is there an echo in here?

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Speleothing

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Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 13:09

Re: Dynamic Monsters branch

Thats a good thing right? Feedback converging in some areas is good, it gives you a clear idea of what to change.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 28th January 2017, 00:05

Re: Besotted Monsters branch

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 162540.txt

I played a game in this branch without reading the thread first. I only noticed one bezotted monster during the game, and xv and fighting it weren't enough to tell me whether "bezotted" was good for me or the monster. The morgue tells me there were six more during the course of the game.

Messages need to be improved to tell the player what to do to avoid creating besotted monsters.

This is my 713th Troll, and the first one I've won, so the game isn't harder for Trolls in this configuration. (Or I finally got lucky.)

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