Complete mutation revamp: a plea for 0.2X

[removeelyvilon]

I just lost the elaborate and detailed post I was originally going to make due to some internet voodoo and I'm kinda mad about it so I try to keep it as short as I possibly can.

---

1. Make the interactions between racial abilties, mutations and forms more clear and easier to understand. For example, Naga can spit poison in Spider Form, but other racial abilities don't work that way. You have to know by heart which ones do and which ones don't. This is true for all of the mutation system; it is complex and confusing. Also weed out the many bugs (if you have big wings activated and morph into ice form, you keep flying but you cannot cancel the flight. Because you have no wings.)
Right now it's really messy what works when; it's different from race to race, mutation to mutation and from form to form. It's a big cognitive load for players for little gain.

2. Good mutations are "nice to have" at best and detrimental at worst, bad ones reach from vexing to life-threateningly crippling. You can see why only a lunatic would eat mutagenic meat or quaff a potion of mutation. Also rebalance the bad once so that not a select few of them are brutally crippling regardless of character.
This isn't really fun in my opinion. The player should at least consider taking the risk because the rewards could be as good as the punishment would be bad.

Many "good" mutations are weak and unimpactful, in part because you are unlikely to get them to level 3; make mutations only one or two levels; possibly introduce a way to semi-steer which ones evolve (potion of evolutuion?). This includes Jello-exclusive mutations which are equally unexciting and definitely not worth losing all items of the dungeon over; but this isn't about Jello specifically so I'm going to cut it here.

Overall add new randomly obtainable mutations, make old ones more fun and impactful.

3. Quash permanent malmutate or come up with a real way that players can use to protect themselve. Malmutate serves no purpose atm other than to annoy people and make them end runs earlier than they would have liked to.

---

Working example of a fun and impactful mutation system: the ds race. A. All Ds muts are guaranteed to evolve beyond level 1 and B. the exclusive ones are for the most part, impactful, fun and open up new possibilites for the players or force them to think their strategy over. Except for body slots mutations of course, which are terrible. Except claws, of course.

[Nekoatl]

1) In terms of improving clarity, a good place to start would be to add descriptions accessible from the 'A' screen.

2) Maybe mutations with both advantages and drawbacks should have a separate category than "good" or "bad". That said, some of the good mutations are quite potent, and I think you're understating their value. I think one reason that bad mutations seem worse than good mutations is that they're so much easier to acquire.

3) There are ways to effectively defend against malmutate... Zin blocks it, Jiyva removes the bad mutations it produces (but leaves the occasional good ones!), Necromutation mitigates the effects. Some artifacts grant rMut, but that only gives a 2/3 chance to block a mutation, which is kinda lame for how rare the effect is, but they do allow Zin worshipers to spend piety without opening the door to mutation. None of these sources are exactly convenient, but thankfully malmutate is seldom a threat that early game characters face (untimely banishment to the Abyss notwithstanding), and only the artifacts aren't guaranteed.

For maximum mutation goodness, try playing a felid with Necromutation. Your unarmed attacks get short blade stabbing bonuses and the drain brand, you're immune to mutation while transformed, and you can drop out of lichform at will to quaff potions of beneficial mutation, without concern of losing equipment slots or existing mutations.

[Shtopit]

3 is the big one, I think. Current passive defences are actually special cases, which you are likely not to get: two gods out of 23, three races out of 26, some artifacts you can't expect to find, and a level 8 double school spell.
So you need to use active defences. These boil down to becoming a summoner/necromancer or getting smiting, which forces you to play with allies (which I personally hate), or go Quetzal or airstrike. Which might be doable, if it weren't for eerie limitations to allies, like not being able to strike or fight outside your los, or not being able to being micromanaged or sent to a certain position.
All in all, you are forced to plan ahead and invest a lot in protecting yourself against a very, very situational menace. I can't actually think of a comparison, because Malm is both permanent AND rare. This is why I think removing rMut wasn't a good idea, it opened up a number of house-made solutions that sure make you creative, but simply cannot fill that space: the fact that MR doesn't do anything further isolates malmutate, so you have to invest a lot, where you previously could hope for a drop.
You can't rely on retroactively finding cMut. Lignification is a band aid, but too dangerous to use later on.

I think a little help would be a good number of monsters causing contamination instead of direct malmutations. But, in general, I think that dealing with mutations should be a strategic problem mainly dealt with through consumables, instead of skilling; use of consumables at the right time is also a tactical thing, and a fun one.

[Quazifuji]

2) Maybe mutations with both advantages and drawbacks should have a separate category than "good" or "bad". That said, some of the good mutations are quite potent, and I think you're understating their value. I think one reason that bad mutations seem worse than good mutations is that they're so much easier to acquire.

Some good mutations are strong, but they'll rarely win you the game, while there are bad mutations that can very easily lose the game.

You also have to consider that most people in this forum are good enough at the game to win it without relying on an extremely lucky mutation roulette. For players of that caliber, taking risks with a chance to make the game easier and a chance to make the game harder is generally suboptimal, and an early very bad mutation is even more likely to cost them the game than an early good mutation is to win it.

3) There are ways to effectively defend against malmutate... Zin blocks it, Jiyva removes the bad mutations it produces (but leaves the occasional good ones!), Necromutation mitigates the effects. Some artifacts grant rMut, but that only gives a 2/3 chance to block a mutation, which is kinda lame for how rare the effect is, but they do allow Zin worshipers to spend piety without opening the door to mutation. None of these sources are exactly convenient, but thankfully malmutate is seldom a threat that early game characters face (untimely banishment to the Abyss notwithstanding), and only the artifacts aren't guaranteed.

In other words, for the vast majority of characters, there are no ways to effectively defend against malmutate. Granted, given that Amulets of Resist Mutation have been removed, it's also clear the the devs don't want the defense against malmutate to be as simple as an item swap.

Personally, I like the idea of replacing malmutate with an ability that causes a small amount of contamination. That would add more counterplay, since you'd have to get hit multiple times to get any mutations. It would make minimizing your time spent in LoS of mutators a more effective strategy (right now you can spend a single turn in LoS of a mutator and still get unlucky and end up with blurry vision), and it would also add the alternative counterplay of just running away if your contamination starts getting high.

That said, while that would improve the malmutate issue, I still agree with OP that the designs of the mutations themselves still need work. Overall, I think it's not clear what purpose mutations are supposed to serve in this game. The obvious answer is an extra way to vary characters and add bonuses or limitations that you play around, but they rarely feel that way. Right now, they mostly just feel like the last long-term way your character can get messed up by enemies since corrosion became temporary and item destruction was removed. They're something you usually try to avoid getting when you're playing optimally, most of them aren't that significant, and when you do get a significant bad one it often feels more like you just got really unlucky than it does like you got punished for a mistake.

I like the idea of mutations, but I think the system definitely needs some serious work. Right now it's an annoying thing some end-game monsters do more often than it's a fun feature of the game.

[prozacelf]

3 is the big one, I think. Current passive defences are actually special cases, which you are likely not to get: two gods out of 23, three races out of 26, some artifacts you can't expect to find, and a level 8 double school spell.

Halflings have innate rMut too. And there are 3 levels of rMut mutation that you can get (most commonly from Evolution or Xom). IIRC, the 3rd level renders you immune to all sources of mutation that aren't from a god or from contam.

[Nekoatl]

In other words, for the vast majority of characters, there are no ways to effectively defend against malmutate. Granted, given that Amulets of Resist Mutation have been removed, it's also clear the the devs don't want the defense against malmutate to be as simple as an item swap.

Though with the trend of making every amulet a pain to swap, this seems like it should be less of a concern now....

The obvious answer is an extra way to vary characters and add bonuses or limitations that you play around, but they rarely feel that way. Right now, they mostly just feel like the last long-term way your character can get messed up by enemies since corrosion became temporary and item destruction was removed. They're something you usually try to avoid getting when you're playing optimally, most of them aren't that significant, and when you do get a significant bad one it often feels more like you just got really unlucky than it does like you got punished for a mistake.

I think this is simply an issue of having no control over which good mutations you get. With every other aspect of character customization in the game, you have a variety of strategic choices to make, but with mutations, your only options are try for good mutations or don't. "Don't" is much easier, but the potential for massive power is there for those who're willing to try for it. Don't believe me? Load up on them in Wizard mode... they can make a *huge* difference when you can choose which ones you get. It may not be worth it for streakers or speed runners, but for players who simply enjoy trying out different strategies or trying to build the most OP characters possible, there's a lot of appeal.

And there are 3 levels of rMut mutation that you can get (most commonly from Evolution or Xom). IIRC, the 3rd level renders you immune to all sources of mutation that aren't from a god or from contam.

These don't seem to exist anymore, though...? Trying to apply them in Wizard mode in 0.19 doesn't work, even though it did in older versions.

Edit: They still exist, but for some reason attempting to add or remove them in Wizard mode always fails now. Very strange.

[NhorianScum]

3 is the big one, I think. Current passive defences are actually special cases, which you are likely not to get: two gods out of 23, three races out of 26, some artifacts you can't expect to find, and a level 8 double school spell.

Halflings have innate rMut too. And there are 3 levels of rMut mutation that you can get (most commonly from Evolution or Xom). IIRC, the 3rd level renders you immune to all sources of mutation that aren't from a god or from contam.

Halflings Rmut (or the Rmut mutation in general) is very accurately categorized as a bad mutation. I'm not entirely certain why a race needed this shit and frail 1 inherently.

My main issue with Malmut comes from OOF's and random as fuck sniper neq's in the 3 rune game since it's pretty fucking hard to interact with the floaty deathball that is immune to every god damn thing in the game with killer bee+++ speed, or the thing that just malmutated you from edge of LoS because you tried to move in a video game.

In extended you have actual options to manage malmut. Namely PPJ+Silver javalins/Big rocks/Tripple Xbow. Kills things real fucking dead and is more or less guaranteed.

[Rast]

FR: remove all non-racial goodmuts and the goodmut potion. Make badmuts wear off after one XL worth of XP.

[luckless]

I think the main problem is that people tend to have one of two playing philosophies about good mutations.

#1: Thinks of good mutations as temporary perks. Limits exposure to malmutate using tactics (prioritizes targets who have it, limits line of effect with summons/other enemies) but generally doesn't expect to avoid it completely.

#2: Gets attached to good mutations as part of a character's identity or the like. Avoids malmutate at all costs, e.g. by converting to Zin, doing a couple extra branches just to get XP for lichform, or skipping extended purely because doing one of these things feels less fun than losing one's mutations.

Of these, #1 is probably better strategically but #2 is probably how most people play. (Certainly it's how I play; I know it's suboptimal but mutations are part of what makes crawl fun.) I suspect mutations are a vexed topic because lots of people think #1 is obviously how you should play crawl (and maybe what the devs want to encourage) but lots of other people don't care: they want their mutations, damn it.

Personally I think the only solution is to come down clearly one way or the other. Either the mutation system should be explicitly designed around the assumption that good mutations should normally last the whole game once acquired, or they should explicitly be treated as temporary if not cut entirely. In the first case they should be much easier to preserve--as with the OP's #3--and perhaps harder to get. In the second case they should probably have built-in time limits or expire after enough XP or something.

[spudwalt]

I enjoy the current system of mutations -- some games I'll play mutation roulette, but other games I'll try to stay unmutated. Sure, some of the bad mutations are really nasty, but that's what makes it fun for me (and really what makes Roguelikes in general fun for me) -- you never know what kind of luck you're going to have. Sometimes you get a bunch of useful resistances and a tail stinger, other times you get shoutitis, slow healing, and frail. I also appreciate that the mutation system is (mostly) optional. Sure, there's Malmutate, but that only shows up on enemies that are specifically intended to be dangerous (at least, that's how it seems from my experience; I have little experience with extended).

I can definitely get behind making various mutations consistent across forms, though -- I hadn't realized naga spit worked in other forms.

Getting something like electricity resistance or a tail stinger only to realize that it's eventually going to go away as I level up would make me sad.

[ololoev]

only a lunatic would eat mutagenic meat or quaff a potion of mutation. Also rebalance the bad once so that not a select few of them are brutally crippling regardless of character.

You are wrong about bad muts. There are a few bad mutations that really demand quaffing !cmut: zerkitis for a weak fighter, mcFlurry vision above 1st lvl, teleportits, statrot for a weak character. But you may get free resistances, AC and stats. Spit poison 2 for naga makes earlygame trivial. If you have more than 1 !cmut, you should eat all mutagenic stuff you fing on your way.

[ion_frigate]

Quick way to improve the "good mutations are useless until level 2/3" problem: Every random mutation source has a 50% of acting as before, and a 50% chance of increasing the level of an existing mutation. This creates an interesting game where the risk/reward involved in quaffing a potion of mutation varies, in a fairly obvious manner, by what mutations you have.

[pedritolo]

I often quaff mutation potions as soon as I find them, until I gain a healthy list of white and red muts. Then I try to win the game regardless. It's great fun, at least for me.

[duvessa]

You are wrong about bad muts. There are a few bad mutations that really demand quaffing !cmut: zerkitis for a weak fighter, mcFlurry vision above 1st lvl, teleportits, statrot for a weak character.

None of these mutations demand quaffing cure mutation. They're annoying, yes, but really not dangerous. Although I concede that blurry vision is dangerous if you literally forget you have it, which is easier to do than it sounds.

[Mapkos]

You are wrong about bad muts. There are a few bad mutations that really demand quaffing !cmut: zerkitis for a weak fighter, mcFlurry vision above 1st lvl, teleportits, statrot for a weak character.

None of these mutations demand quaffing cure mutation. They're annoying, yes, but really not dangerous. Although I concede that blurry vision is dangerous if you literally forget you have it, which is easier to do than it sounds.

Random teleports will kill you, especially as a mage. I was going for an extended run, finished all the Pan runes, nearly got killed because I was warped into a pan lord's chamber. Took every potion of cure mutation I could find, but couldn't lose it. Got to the bottom of Tartarus and got warped right into Ereshkigal's chamber. Immediately read scroll of teleport, but a doom hound howled at me, so after taking two torments and teleporting away, I still had to deal with more demons who could cast torment and some bone dragons. Even used my last scroll of blinking, but couldn't escape death.

[Nekoatl]

Yeah, teleportitis is much nastier after being tweaked to look for really dangerous places to drop you.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Getting teleported into the Hellion island sounds quite annoying indeed, even a bit dangerous. Teleportitis is definitely on my shortlist to be cured ASAP.

[Speleothing]

Halflings Rmut (or the Rmut mutation in general) is very accurately categorized as a bad mutation. I'm not entirely certain why a race needed this shit and frail 1 inherently.

My main issue with Malmut comes from OOF's and random as fuck sniper neq's in the 3 rune game since it's pretty fucking hard to interact with the floaty deathball that is immune to every god damn thing in the game with killer bee+++ speed, or the thing that just malmutated you from edge of LoS because you tried to move in a video game.

In extended you have actual options to manage malmut. Namely PPJ+Silver javalins/Big rocks/Tripple Xbow. Kills things real fucking dead and is more or less guaranteed.

Neq's and Shining Eyes should both have Cantrip added to their spell list.