The Tavern

Not being able to recover normally is not fun and interesting. It's fiddly and tedious. Tavern hates kiting and food because of unnecessary keystrokes so I'm sure they can relate.
It is so bad that even diehard hardcore dwarf-fans don't touch DD.

Even if you are willing to put up with the drudge work, this design simply doesn't function in a game where resting is a core mechanic and with almost no compatible sources of healing available.

Your realistic god choices to Makhleb and perhaps Trog. Diversity! And no, Ely is a terrible choice post-rework.

Whether they are the most powerful species on the planet or the worst one doesn't matter. They one-sided and a pain in the side to play regardless.

---

So why aren't we taking the gordian-knot approach here and just axe the "no resting." And whatever their post-hw removal healing ability is called.
If you must have some kind of healing limitation for nostalgia reasons, let them be unaffected by potions and any non-divine source of regeneration. Not sure about vampiric and vampiric draining.

---

The innevitable complaint that this would make DD broken OP or whatever is irrelevant. Species aren't balanced against each other. Some are intentionally easier than others.
But if you can't sleep at night anymore, feel free to tone them down a tad elsewhere in exchange for being able to rest.

I think this post sums up why DD needs a rework. DD feels busted and uninteresting to experienced players while hostile and painful towards new players.

99% of DD being broken is because of their healing ability so removing it and letting them rest would be a big nerf, not a buff (and they need a big nerf)

The game even already has Slow Heal 1 (half healing when monsters are in LOS) and Slow Heal 2 (no healing when monsters in LOS) as options if you want to limit regeneration during combat.

After this suggested change, DD would be Human with damage shaving and some aptitude tweaks. I don't think they'd be worth keeping in this case.

I once made a suggestion and patch here. Essentially, all healing for DD is removed except potions. DD "brew" heal wounds potions as they explore the dungeon (with deeper floors dropping more potions).

[I got the idea based on DD of Ely, where you gain piety by exploration and spend it on healing. Ely does very little for this version of DD because divine healing is disabled.]

I playtested it a bit, and it was fine. DD is still very strong. There are some issues involved, but none of them insurmountable. One tweak I'd like is to make healing inversely dependent on tension - so these heal wounds potions are less effective in combat.

What if DD just couldn't heal at all, in any way, ever?

Siegurt wrote:What if DD just couldn't heal at all, in any way, ever?

Based on my experience with DD of Zin, this is more painful/annoying than current situation. You basically kill autoexplore and the game becomes a gamble where you are looking for downstairs while chased by multiple monsters.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote:What if DD just couldn't heal at all, in any way, ever?

Based on my experience with DD of Zin, this is more painful/annoying than current situation. You basically kill autoexplore and the game becomes a gamble where you are looking for downstairs while chased by multiple monsters.

All right, all right, admittedly that's annoying as heck, how about they get 1 immediate full heal every time they get a new experience level? (Note both this and my prior suggestion are not really very serious, mostly just a thought exercise

Siegurt wrote:All right, all right, admittedly that's annoying as heck, how about they get 1 immediate full heal every time they get a new experience level? (Note both this and my prior suggestion are not really very serious, mostly just a thought exercise

That will encourage avoiding monsters too. Why should I kill a goblin when I am at 5.99 XL and full HP, better to avoid it and kill some dangerous monster to get instant heal.

Siegurt wrote:What if DD just couldn't heal at all, in any way, ever?

I once had the batshit crazy idea of a race that did no have hit points, instead has deterioration 3 and once one(or all) stats reach zero they die.

Siegurt wrote:What if DD just couldn't heal at all, in any way, ever?

I think it'd turn the game into a "do whatever you can to avoid taking damage at all, ever" one; you'd want to kite absolutely everything that could do even 1HP of damage to you because you could never get that HP back.

I think that if you want a game that treats HP as a strategic resource you want something designed with that as a foundational principle. Lots of tiny roguelikes do this.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote:All right, all right, admittedly that's annoying as heck, how about they get 1 immediate full heal every time they get a new experience level? (Note both this and my prior suggestion are not really very serious, mostly just a thought exercise

That will encourage avoiding monsters too. Why should I kill a goblin when I am at 5.99 XL and full HP, better to avoid it and kill some dangerous monster to get instant heal.

Hm, so in some situations you would be encouraged to avoid popcorn and fight hard fights, well, that is weird and different at least, i am not sure if its good, but it is at least a different playstyle.

I guess it comes down to whether DD with slow healing 2 and no self-healing special ability would be different enough from (insert species X) for the refined tastes of the crawl community.

Also if you make a race that cannot heal at all ever, let them start with 600 hp or soemthing.

I feel the same way about DD as I do about Mu: if they didn't already exist, someone would invent them immediately. "Limited healing" is a cool idea.

If I had my druthers, however, I would make DD the new Vampires, by giving them innate HP-on-kills and a more limited active healing ability (maybe a guarantee to shave a MP, or temporary mutations?), and then make Vampires into Werewolves or similar, with a greater focus on having to deal with being shuffled across different forms (with XP gating, for example).

chequers wrote:After this suggested change, DD would be Human with damage shaving and some aptitude tweaks. I don't think they'd be worth keeping in this case.

DD is already human with damage shaving, some aptitude weaks, and a bunch of free heal wounds potions. Not seeing how that's any more worthy of keeping.

duvessa wrote:
chequers wrote:After this suggested change, DD would be Human with damage shaving and some aptitude tweaks. I don't think they'd be worth keeping in this case.
DD is already human with damage shaving, some aptitude weaks, and a bunch of free heal wounds potions. Not seeing how that's any more worthy of keeping.

But duvessa! If they run out of the giant stack of heal wounds potions before finding vamp weapon or mahkleb or other healing god, then they just die right there! Surely you must admit that is interesting enough on its own to be the basis for a species?

I don't think dying because Temple spawned on D:9 is interesting. It's closer to start-scumming IMHO.

FR: DD starts with Makhleb unless it is Be.

Edit. DDAK should be unavailable.

What if each race had a unique gimmick, and you just didn't mess with it?

Rast wrote:But duvessa! If they run out of the giant stack of heal wounds potions before finding vamp weapon or mahkleb or other healing god, then they just die right there! Surely you must admit that is interesting enough on its own to be the basis for a species?

God forbid you had a chance of losing in this game...

TonberryJam wrote:What if each race had a unique gimmick, and you just didn't mess with it?

Sounds good, maybe someday crawl can cut enough species to try it out.

DDs start the game at XL3; they don't have HPs; any (shaved) damage they take is deduced from XPs. They die if they ever reach 0 XP. No HP, hence no healing.

galbolle wrote:DDs start the game at XL3; they don't have HPs; any (shaved) damage they take is deduced from XPs. They die if they ever reach 0 XP. No HP, hence no healing.

That'd make them unstoppable past midgame, no?

pedritolo wrote:
galbolle wrote:DDs start the game at XL3; they don't have HPs; any (shaved) damage they take is deduced from XPs. They die if they ever reach 0 XP. No HP, hence no healing.

That'd make them unstoppable past midgame, no?

Probably. On the other hand, according to the ratio you apply between HPs and XPs, it may be possible to balance that so that they only become unstoppable once they've won anyway. That ratio can even be made higher at higher levels (lose more XPs per damage), in which case they might reach an equilibrium that is not XL27.

High Elves: "A race that has great stats and can worship a god is no fun. Go play DG or worship Chei."

Deep Dwarves: "A race that is clearly overpowered and tedious as fuck is the soul of DCSS."

If it wasn't for the difficult starts, then you'd never appreciate the rare drops that turn it into an easy walk for a few levels. Some of my best games were dangerous for most of dungeon, then a few drops made it a smooth ride to extended. The hard-worked paid off, and I enjoyed the spoils. That's the real spirit of DCSS.

Nothing wrong with a graind. If you want speed games that can be done in a 2-4 hour sitting, make a mode for it.

you can already do that. though I do agree that getting to the point where the game becomes easy is satisfying if you struggle to get there(but it still becomes old if it lasts too long).

galbolle wrote:DDs start the game at XL3; they don't have HPs; any (shaved) damage they take is deduced from XPs. They die if they ever reach 0 XP. No HP, hence no healing.

Have you ever been "pemanently zero skilled by sonja"? Your idea is basically that, you have a race that will take damage until it reaches a "point of no return" where you are still alive but you have to quit the game because the amount of degenerate gameplay you would have to undergo to salvage the run is insufferable(which is all similar to the stat drain race i mentioned). You can balance that until you are just emulating hp in a convoluted way.

TonberryJam wrote:If it wasn't for the difficult starts, then you'd never appreciate the rare drops that turn it into an easy walk for a few levels.

Thats like saying having 200 str is not as exciting as having 100 str. Imagine playing a Troll and finding dragon king armor on d:5. Finding rare drops is actually pretty bad, its a moment of amusement and relief that is followed up by boredom and the sudden realization of that leads players to throw themselves into danger to make things more exciting. Thats how those bullshit player ghosts are born.

Shard1697 wrote:you can already do that. though I do agree that getting to the point where the game becomes easy is satisfying if you struggle to get there(but it still becomes old if it lasts too long).

And thats why races like Cyno will never make it into trunk because they are the opposite of that(who am i kidding, im sure they will make it in just fine).

I've got idea from Desktop Dungeons: since we have piety gain from exploration, how about hp gain from exploration?

The problems with HP for exploration is that it encourages you to leave a bunch of space unexplored until you get hurt, and you can need to travel a long way to find your unexplored space to use for healing. And it also encourages things like casting loud spells in explored areas to get monsters to come to you.

HP for kills clearly works for DD. I wonder if they'd be playable without damage shaving, but with innate Makhleb healing.

(And yes, I know HP-for-kills encourages leaving monsters around for health, just like HP-for-exploration encourages leaving unexplored tiles.)

I don't hate DD the way some people do, but honestly I think the rest-to-heal species work better in DCSS. Removing popcorn monsters might make HP-for-kills work better but as we've discussed before here, that's a nontrivial task.

Just had a crazy idea thats actually thematic and interesting (IMO)

(Might require a slight flavor change)

Have DD able to rest or heal as an ability, but doing so destroys nearby rock walls (you draw strength from the stone of the dungeon) and costs quite a bit of hunger (more than resting would). Doing so makes some noise. The more walls nearby, the more you heal, capped at 6 walls (so that you can't just stand in an empty cleared area and heal).

Benefits:

Preserves the idea of a race that cannot heal in combat.
Removes the frustration of a race that cannot heal at all.
Has a unique malus/effect that results in strategic consequences.

My first win was DD; after a very few miscellanous games I played 11 DD in a row and won. So, yes, I'm pretty biased, but I like them.

They're much more interesting than the humanoid species with varying degrees of talent for spellcasting and monster-whacking. They're not stupidly good (OK, they're pretty good early on, yes) and they're not stupidly bad. Sure, they have a de facto restricted god choice, but Beogh has a de jure restricted species choice. Leave 'em alone!

How about innate Borgnjor's Revivification with smaller HP-loss but with draining effect?

The Tavern

Make DD able to rest.

Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.

Re: Make DD able to rest.