Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 15:48

Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

EDIT: Now playable offline at https://github.com/PabloMansanet/crawl/ ... haeologist

Unrands are fun. Unfortunately, they tend to come at a point in the game where you already have a build going. I've been experimenting locally with a "unrandart draft" game mode, where you decide a species and a background after an unrand is randomly assigned to you, and I've had a lot of fun with it, so I've been wondering if a similar concept could fit the crawl philosophy; a way to build a run around an early unrandart instead of making it fit into a strategy already underway.

Background: Archaeologist
Archaeologists enter the dungeon interested not only in the Orb of Zot, but in unlocking the secrets of an ancient relic by obtaining knowledge from the dungeon.

Starts with mediocre items and stats, 2x Scroll of Identify, 2x Scroll of Magic Mapping. 1x Dusty Tome and 1x Ancient Crate.

The dusty tome and ancient crate are the key pieces of the background. They don't do anything by themselves. At XL 3, the dusty tome reveals itself as manual of some skill. It could be a Long Blades manual, Armour manual, a particular spellcasting school, etc. You get prompted with a message along the lines of "Studying this manual might be the key to unlocking the crate".

If/when you finish the manual, you will become able to open the crate, and get an unrandart related to the manual skill. Armour pieces if you had an armour manual, robes/staves for spellcasting, etc. Anything goes as long as the unrandart can be equipped by your species. Some connections can be more interesting like a manual of Stealth leading into the Boots of the Assassin, for example.

Why organize things this way? I think the bait-and-switch method of unlocking the initial unrandart can give rise to very fun situations. Unlocking the skill type at XL3 is important to prevent start scumming, and once there you're faced with an interesting decision. Being given a M&F manual as a deep elf, for example, would give you the chance to play a very unusual build with the promise of an early unrandart as an incentive.

I think it's cool to use this method of unlocking the crate to force a sunken cost situation, where you're pushed towards making an unrand work no matter how silly/unrelated to your species choice it is. Of course, you could have the background line up perfectly with the species and be gifted an Axes manual and Frostbite as a minotaur, but it wouldn't be a significant power spike comparing with having found it randomly.

Thoughts?
Last edited by Steel Neuron on Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 19:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 17:28

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

I like the idea. Strikes me as a version of Wanderer that I'd actually want to play. Often you run into randarts in the early-to-mid dungeon range, but don't use them because they're not powerful enough to justify a major shift in your playstyle. Yes, there's a randart mace, but a +2 mace of draining with rN+ isn't worth switching to 0 skill M&F for a melee playstyle, or going melee from a magic/ranged playstyle. And if you're already going M&F, it's more "Oh, that'll be nice for the next couple levels" than "Game-changer!"

This would be a background that could give you a big one-time boost to your power (i.e. minotaur fighter gets axes and frostbite) or give you a powerful enough item and skill boost to make you seriously consider "Well, maybe I should try something different" (say, your deep elf gets polearms and wyrmbane).

It's got that game-changing ability that you see with demonspawn/draconian mutations...and really, it maps well onto what we see with draconians in particular. That one-time major shift in character potential, that you don't necessarily have to build on, but definitely might be worth it. Get red colour, maybe you go the fire route instead; get the nightstalker mutation, maybe you shift to a more stealth/stabby playstyle.

The one change I'd really suggest is that maybe the manual identification should be pushed back a bit, to maybe level 7 or so. A player can reach level 3 on D1, so there's much less of a directional shift and a risk-reward calculation there. If you know on D1 that you're getting a polearm from your crate, you can grab the first spear you see and go; if you don't know until you've sunk a bit more into something else, it's more of a decision. Same as with the draconians. The power of getting a manual and an unrandart should help compensate for having it show up a little later.

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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 17:50

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

Unrands are fun. Let's give players a guaranteed way to grind them so they cease to be fun!

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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 18:33

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

asdu wrote:Unrands are fun. Let's give players a guaranteed way to grind them so they cease to be fun!


I haven't put a lot of thought into this proposal, but could you elaborate on what would stop them from being fun? This isn't unlike other "booster pack" mechanics in DCSS, except instead of draconian colors or demonspawn mutations you get an unrandart.

Also, not sure what you mean by grind in this context, you get them through normal play. If you are talking about start scumming, I agree with aean that the level at which you discover the manual should be pushed back.

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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 20:12

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

This sounds exciting. I hope there's a way to make sure an unrand doesn't bust the game. Maybe making it a rand is better? I really like the thought of a manual influencing how you play a game, it's kinda like Merfolk but less Merfolk.
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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 20:47

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

Elitist wrote:This sounds exciting. I hope there's a way to make sure an unrand doesn't bust the game.

Isnt that the whole purpose of a rand/unrand?
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Post Saturday, 7th January 2017, 21:35

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

Aean wrote:The one change I'd really suggest is that maybe the manual identification should be pushed back a bit, to maybe level 7 or so. A player can reach level 3 on D1, so there's much less of a directional shift and a risk-reward calculation there. If you know on D1 that you're getting a polearm from your crate, you can grab the first spear you see and go; if you don't know until you've sunk a bit more into something else, it's more of a decision. Same as with the draconians. The power of getting a manual and an unrandart should help compensate for having it show up a little later.


I thought the whole point of this proposal is that it doesn't force you to switch your direction. Part of the problem with unrands currently (particularly weapon unrands) is that not only are the items themselves rare, but even when you do find them there's a good chance it's on a character that doesn't have a use for them. I see part of the fun of this proposal being that you get unrands with the guarantee that they're ones your character has the skills to make use of. Honestly, hitting level 7 with an archaeologist only to find out your manual sucks sounds more frustrating than interesting. Finding out I've got a manual of polearms and a guaranteed unrand polearm coming with a level 3 DE sounds fun. Finding that out with a level 7 DE sounds a lot less fun.

So personally, I really like the proposal as is in the OP. If it's too powerful, I think the thing that should be nerfed is the manual - the background seems clearly geared towards a weak early game but a potentially strong mid-late game if they get a good unrand, but the training bonus from the manual could offset that.
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Post Sunday, 8th January 2017, 19:01

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

I like the idea as well. Maybe have the aptitudes a bit lower to compensate for the huge skill boost the manual gives. Overall it sounds like a great concept.
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Post Sunday, 8th January 2017, 19:32

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist

pedritolo wrote: Maybe have the aptitudes a bit lower to compensate for the huge skill boost the manual gives.
How about starting with 0 skillpoints?
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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 19:04

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I threw together a playable branch at https://github.com/PabloMansanet/crawl/ ... haeologist

Some changes from the initial idea:

  • Starts with 1 skill point in stealth (nothing else), and shit attributes.
  • Starts with no weapons, but well dressed (+1 robe, hat, gloves and boots, with stylish tiles), and with a loaf of bread.

Early game forces you to improvise because you start with no combat skills, but some extra AC to compensate. The manual is a 1200 SP manual, subject to change. The rest is as outlined in the OP.

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Post Wednesday, 11th January 2017, 20:39

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

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Post Thursday, 12th January 2017, 18:51

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Steel Neuron SHOULD just become a full-on dev. He has lots of great Ideas and knows how to implement them
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 09:13

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Thanks for the kind words, guys :).

I'd love to be a dev some day, but I'm sure being one doesn't only involve throwing one's ideas to the game and seeing what sticks. I probably should also help maintain and improve the systems that are already there, which is something that I'm promising myself I'll do at some point! At the moment I'm just contributing with new features and there's only so much of that you can do without being a nuisance.

(Speaking of which, I should ask around if wand stacking is a desirable chance and might take that one...)

Back to the topic though: I've been discussing the archaeologist at IRC and we may have an experimental branch soon! The consensus seems to be though that it shouldn't always gift unrands, but should generally gift good items / randarts and only very rarely an unrand.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 11:55

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I concur with the push to have the crate only rarely give an unrand. It's still a huge buff for the possibility of landing on an unrand that's relevant.

Not currently discussed: what if the mystery manual is for a magic skill? Will that possibility exist?

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 12:50

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Psieye wrote:I concur with the push to have the crate only rarely give an unrand. It's still a huge buff for the possibility of landing on an unrand that's relevant.

Not currently discussed: what if the mystery manual is for a magic skill? Will that possibility exist?


Not at the moment, but it could. If you were to get a particular spell school as as a skill, the crate should be good enough to compensate the inconvenience; for example an randart book with spells from that school + a randart ring that boosts that school or a magical staff.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 16:38

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I'm concerned about this background idea because it seems to be about making the extremely early game harder in exchange for a significantly easier early to mid to end game. In a sense it amplifies the existing difficulty distribution, which is already not ideal IMO.

I like the thrill-of-discovery aspect here, and I think that if you can find a way to make it work with the power curves it could be a fun addition conceivably. I'd suggest something like starting with lower than normal stats (since those will affect you all game) and a couple minor consumables along with some guarantee that the manual + reward aren't going to be absolutely nuts.

Edit:I'm not sure there's a good balance possible here, and a background that's designed not to help you during the earliest part of the game is odd- that's what backgrounds are for.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 16:55

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Lasty wrote:Edit:I'm not sure there's a good balance possible here, and a background that's designed not to help you during the earliest part of the game is odd- that's what backgrounds are for.


Well, Monk may help only by D:4 or even later depending on dungeon generation, so I'd say there is at least one kinda of precedent
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 17:04

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I think many (most?) players don't use backgrounds for help but as starting point of what they want to be later. I.e. if I want to cast firestorm or bolt of fire, fire elementalist is natural for that. We don't start as ice elementalist (which provides more help).
Similarly archaeologist can be seen as starting point for players who want many good items late game (Gozag provides something similar but the background lets us use a different god).
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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 17:46

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

re: Early game difficulties, I think there are two factors at play here, balance and theme.

In terms of balance, I agree the background should be easier early game, but in terms of theme, it would be cool if it happened in a flavourful way. I think improvisation is a major theme of the background, so rather than a clear early path, I'd double down in helping you make the most out of the first tools you grab. This could be done by increasing the enchant level of the clothing even further (+2 hat and gloves) to provide a neutral defensive boost, and/or offering a bit better but very general skill selection (high fighting and dodging but no particular weapon skill, low str and dex but high int).

As far as late game goes, I think having access to a bit of extra SP and an ?acq is going to have very little if any impact compared to god or species choice, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

The main concern is whether having easy access to unrandarts as part of a background devalues unrandarts as a whole. I'm inclined to say it doesn't, but I can see the argument to the contrary, and I don't think "Just don't play the background" constitutes an argument. Still, I'm sure this is a problem that can be solved by tweaking the chance for unrands to happen, and I'd say a 20% chance is fine considering the difficulties of getting that far.

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Post Friday, 13th January 2017, 18:26

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Oh, right, I forgot the spec calls for starting w/ 6 AC and full EV and a weapon, which means that it's starting with above-average defenses that get significantly better once you find a random ring mail. This might just be straight-up OP instead of exaggerating the curve. IMO you should be looking for a way to balance this out against other backgrounds in terms of total skillpoints over the early game through the end of the manual, in terms of starting gear and gear by the time you get your artefact, and overall survivability of the package through the end of Lair.

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 11:41

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I was skeptical about this at first, but I have to admit that it's a lot of fun. Still... you have to start the archaeologist with a whip. C'mon, you know you want to.

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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 11:44

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

It should start with hammer for flavor reasons IMHO.
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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 18:47

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

duane wrote:I was skeptical about this at first, but I have to admit that it's a lot of fun. Still... you have to start the archaeologist with a whip. C'mon, you know you want to.


Whip & fedora hat is mandatory imo. It means creating the new hat type, which shouldn't be obtainable by any other means.
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Post Saturday, 14th January 2017, 21:34

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

It does actually start with a fedora right now... It's just a normal hat with the fedora tile, but still ;)

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Post Sunday, 15th January 2017, 11:47

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Steel Neuron wrote:It does actually start with a fedora right now... It's just a normal hat with the fedora tile, but still ;)


Then I clearly ought to test it. I'll give some feedback later.
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Post Sunday, 15th January 2017, 12:37

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Lasty wrote:Oh, right, I forgot the spec calls for starting w/ 6 AC and full EV and a weapon, which means that it's starting with above-average defenses that get significantly better once you find a random ring mail. This might just be straight-up OP instead of exaggerating the curve. IMO you should be looking for a way to balance this out against other backgrounds in terms of total skillpoints over the early game through the end of the manual, in terms of starting gear and gear by the time you get your artefact, and overall survivability of the package through the end of Lair.


I've been playing some more of it, and I think the start is neutral in power, comparable to other backgrounds. Keep in mind that, while it starts with exceptional AC, it also starts with abysmal skills (only 1 SP in Stealth) and very uncomfortable attributes (3 str, 3 dex, 6 int for a background with no starting spells). It might need a consumable or two to bridge the very earliest threats in D:1.

Mid game varies depending on how well the manual lines up with your build. It varies wildly. A DE with a manual of Spellcasting is probably going to be unstoppable, but a Mi with the same manual is probably going to be pathetic (but fun). Whether or not this is a good thing (tm) is not something I can judge without dev input. I could do something artificial, like always give manuals for your species worse aptitudes, but I like the wild variation, which I'd say isn't un-crawl like (it is very possible to get the Lightning Scales on D:2 and have an unstoppable run, this background only increases the odds of situations like that).

All of this said, I'm going to be working on a handful of different "starts" for Ac that don't involve gifting unrandarts, but bundles of related items like staff of -element- and randart book, some jewelry with a theme (strength-heavy if you got a manual of armour) etc etc.

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Post Sunday, 15th January 2017, 13:29

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Oh, I didn't realize how low the skills were. I should try it out.

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Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 20:08

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

This is such a cool start. I like it on Kobold the most and would play it religiously if implemented.
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Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 20:39

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

dynast wrote:
Elitist wrote:This sounds exciting. I hope there's a way to make sure an unrand doesn't bust the game.

Isnt that the whole purpose of a rand/unrand?


Not entirely germane to this discussion, but there are a shitload of bad to mediocre unrands. Compare Robe of Misfortune to Robe of Folly to Robe of Night. One is flat-out terrible, one is good but has a debilitating drawback, and one is just great.

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Post Friday, 20th January 2017, 01:20

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I'd kind of say Robe of Misfortune shouldn't be a possibility. The possibility of getting a mediocre unrand is just part of the class, I think, but including Robe of Misfortune is basically the same as adding a small chance for the box to be empty and doesn't sound like any fun at all.

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Post Friday, 20th January 2017, 08:20

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Quazifuji wrote:I'd kind of say Robe of Misfortune shouldn't be a possibility. The possibility of getting a mediocre unrand is just part of the class, I think, but including Robe of Misfortune is basically the same as adding a small chance for the box to be empty and doesn't sound like any fun at all.


I'm one step ahead of you, it's already excluded from the list ;) (together with any item that your species can't wield, and all unrand jewelry because it's boring and not build-defining, plus it isn't easy to associate to a skill).

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2017, 17:19

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Ring of shadows in not that boring, and easily associable with stealth.

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Post Saturday, 21st January 2017, 17:43

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

If ring of Shadows still has Invisibility it's a really powerful item.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 09:45

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Right, I forgot about Ring of Shadows! I'll get it back in.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 09:55

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Ring of the mage is also pretty good, especially early on, or can be build-defining, at any rate.

Necklace of bloodlust can also be build-defining.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 10:52

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Yep. Will make sure to add those in too.

How about we brainstorm some starts that do not involve unrandarts? It is quite likely that, for this to have a remote chance to be in Trunk one day, the unrand start needs to be quite rare. Here are some ideas for manual->item combinations. Please tell me yours! The idea is, when you open the crate, you get a message along the lines of "This crate used to belong to a circus strongman", "crazed inventor", "ancient emperor" etc.

  • Strongman: SK_ARMOUR-> a very heavy piece of armour + randart jewelry with guaranteed high levels of Str.
  • Coward: SK_THROWING-> Boots of Running and an assortment of good throwables.
  • Sharpshooter: SK_CROSSBOWS-> Gloves of Archery and a big stash of branded bolts.
  • Elementalist: SK_FIRE_MAGIC-> Randart book with Fire spells, Staff of Fire + Ring of Fire (Or a similar one with Ice).
  • Other schools: SK_XXX_MAGIC-> Randart book with spells of that school, Staff of Wizardry + ring of MP/Wizardry.
  • Technician: SK_EVOCATIONS-> 2xRod of Lightning 2xDisc of Storms + piece of randart jewelry with guaranteed rElec.

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Post Sunday, 22nd January 2017, 11:54

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

I like set starts. Really strong items work because once you open these crates, you've already suffered a poor early game. I approve.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 01:44

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

The lightning rod is now an elemental evoker like the fan of gales, so having 2 doesn't help more than one.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 05:59

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Steel Neuron wrote:If you were to get a particular spell school as as a skill, the crate should be good enough to compensate the inconvenience; for example an randart book with spells from that school + a randart ring that boosts that school or a magical staff.


Can you train any skill that you have a manual for even if you wouldn't normally be able to train it (e.g. you don't have a spell of the corresponding skill or a weapon of the corresponding type)?

Even so, having to spend enough experience to finish a manual of a spell school if you have no spells from that school sounds pretty awful, to the point where if you get something like that I feel like it might actually be better to wait until you can use that skill rather than try to rush it, and I feel like this class would be most fun when the best move is opening the crate as soon as possible.

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jwoodward48ss

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 08:16

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Quazifuji wrote:Can you train any skill that you have a manual for even if you wouldn't normally be able to train it (e.g. you don't have a spell of the corresponding skill or a weapon of the corresponding type)?

Yes, although I believe my current Ac implementation is bugged in this regard.

Quazifuji wrote:Even so, having to spend enough experience to finish a manual of a spell school if you have no spells from that school sounds pretty awful, to the point where if you get something like that I feel like it might actually be better to wait until you can use that skill rather than try to rush it, and I feel like this class would be most fun when the best move is opening the crate as soon as possible.


Keep in mind that archaeologist manuals are substantially smaller than normal manuals (1000 SP instead of 2500).

I agree that particular spellcasting schools would be a trickier start, but it's not at all unworkable!

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jwoodward48ss

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 08:19

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Steel Neuron wrote:Keep in mind that archaeologist manuals are substantially smaller than normal manuals (1000 SP instead of 2500).


I wasn't aware of that, it definitely helps. I could still imagine some situations where you're better off just holding off to unlock the crate later instead of rushing it, but at the very least it shouldn't be too hard to rush the unlock for fun even if it isn't optimal.

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jwoodward48ss
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Post Sunday, 29th January 2017, 11:53

Re: Background idea: Archaeologist (Playable offline)

Perhaps instead of the locked box thing, there could be a new, guaranteed, unguarded vault (or with lots of snakes) somewhere on D* , containing what would otherwise be in the starter box? It's IMO more inline with the adventurer archaeologist tropes.
Also, I feel the rewards from that box are being progressively watered down and becoming less interesting as this discussion progresses.
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