Ziggurat improvements

[PowerOfKaishin]

This is a bit of a touchy topic, since the game is not balanced around ziggurats at all, but I find them fun. I think features should be added to the game that would only affect them and I think there should be some attempts at balancing them, especially in terms of god choice.

Now that Powered by Death and Gozag's gold confusion have been nerfed, Makhleb is THE zig god. You can do the first zig with any god, but Makhleb is far easier than the rest. After the first zig the rest get harder and the necessity for his health on kills is really exacerbated.

However, all of his other powers are useless in Zigs. That means you basically play godless minus this one necessary effect. Let's add some meaningful choice!

Zigs are much harder now than they used to be for two reasons: removal of Haste and removal of wands of Tele and Haste (HW too I guess). Silence is especially deadly in zigs now. Zigs really need something to offset that and my proposition makes the other gods useful in Zigs.

On Zig:27, a new item is generated, right on top of the figurine: the Soul Stone. This gives Makhleb's health on kill ability. Yes, an exact copy of it. That god now becomes worthless for raiding zigs but in turn every other god is viable.

If you can complete a zig, you can do anything else except potentially another zig. Therefore, balance issues are basically nil. If you would want to complete 27 levels of a ziggurat to get this item before getting some of the runes, there's really nothing wrong with that.

Edit:

However, I think I'd see if it were feasible for the soul stone to only work in ziggurats. I have a feeling that some builds might find the first zig easier than a 15-rune game, and so might introduce issues unless it were leashed to zigs only.

This + putting it on the first floor (Zig:0?) or perhaps making it a zig passive effect would stop the potentially problem of the first zig being the hardest.

[Steel Neuron]

I think this is actually an elegant solution, as you said the game isn't meant to be balanced around zigs so any approach to this problem must be contained on the zig itself.

The only concern would be that you'd probably have a new "best god" that synergizes with the soul stone, and you would be back to square one.

[minstrel]

I like this, and agree it's an elegant solution to making zigs a little more fun.

However, I think I'd see if it were feasible for the soul stone to only work in ziggurats. I have a feeling that some builds might find the first zig easier than a 15-rune game, and so might introduce issues unless it were leashed to zigs only.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I like this, and agree it's an elegant solution to making zigs a little more fun.

However, I think I'd see if it were feasible for the soul stone to only work in ziggurats. I have a feeling that some builds might find the first zig easier than a 15-rune game, and so might introduce issues unless it were leashed to zigs only.

That's actually a really good idea. And since my proposition arguably makes the first zig harder than the rest, you could put it right at the start of a zig too to fix that.

[dynast]

I think this is the first time i see someone use mega zigging experienced players as an argument for making zigs easier instead of harder. I am highly amused.

[kuniqs]

FYI ziggurats are really fucking boring after the first 3 or so.

[CanOfWorms]

the easier and better solution is to just prevent makhleb followers from entering ziggurats (assuming it's actually a problem, as the OP claims)

[KoboldLord]

Part of the problem is that every level of a Ziggurat consists of a pile of densely-packed garbage monsters. Once the player has farmed xp enough, there's no legitimate way for most monsters to be a threat, and Makhleb transforms these garbage monsters into a resource. Remove the xp farming before the Ziggurat, probably with some sort of global timer, and the problem with Ziggurats becomes limited to the fact that there's really only so much you can do to make loosely-themed blobs of monsters legitimately interesting.

[PowerOfKaishin]

the easier and better solution is to just prevent makhleb followers from entering ziggurats (assuming it's actually a problem, as the OP claims)

Then Ziggurats are freaking impossible. My proposal wants to make them easier not harder.

[CanOfWorms]

so what if zigs are impossible? my proposal solves the problem you outlined (makhleb is a no brainer) and is much, much less complicated to implement than the one you outlined

[PowerOfKaishin]

so what if zigs are impossible? my proposal solves the problem you outlined (makhleb is a no brainer) and is much, much less complicated to implement than the one you outlined

I mean you're programming a game. Why would you remove zig raiding? What logical purpose does that serve?

[CanOfWorms]

you can still do zigs with the change though

[PowerOfKaishin]

you can still do zigs with the change though

Last I checked, you can't raid zigs if zigs are impossible.

[CanOfWorms]

sure you can, you just stop when you leave or die

[kuniqs]

As I said many times before: balancing the game around extended is pointless, stupid and a much better idea is to just remove the Hells, Pandemonium, the Abyss, Ziggurats and anything else that makes infinite XP/consumables possible.

[lethediver]

Agree with kuniqs. Infinite xp and consumables spoils what the entirety of the game prior to extended was about - making the best of limited resources. It bothers me that some chars can abyss scum and safely acquire 30 blink scrolls if they are patient enough.

[bel]

I like OP's idea, since Makhleb is the only god possible for mega-zigs I think. But zigs are weird anyway.

so what if zigs are impossible? my proposal solves the problem you outlined (makhleb is a no brainer) and is much, much less complicated to implement than the one you outlined

It would be even less complicated to uninstall crawl, but nobody is suggesting it in the thread.

[CanOfWorms]

well maybe I should suggest it... right now!!!!

stop playing crawl, PowerOfKaishin, save us all the misery of having to continue this topic. *you* have the power

[duvessa]

megazigs explained: players ask for unwinnable levels, devs give them unwinnable levels, players complain that the levels are unwinnable

[dynast]

Players ask for harder megazigs, devs give them harder megazigs, players beat harder megazigs and insult the devs using exp pots, gods get nerfed.

[lethediver]

Just like in every rpg, the devs responsibility includes making things more difficult to appease their grizzled cantankerous veterans and then giving players new badass abilities to appease the casuals, over and over in an endless cycle, except dcss devs dont actually make money off the cycle

[PowerOfKaishin]

I never wanted megazigs to be impossible, just difficult. Pan Lord floors are currently ridiculously difficult and borderline impossible.

Abyss scumming is dumb, but while you can enter a ziggurat at any time for 13 or 14 floors for phat loot, you can't do the entire ziggurat and not be able to do everything else. Not sure why the infinite experience and items argument has any ground here.