Feedback on changes to Sandblast

[tasonir]

Current changes: sandblast has been reworked to always use a stone, take that stone from inventory, and not be castable without a stone. EE's start with 30 stones, up from 20.

So far it seems a lot better, although the one part that worries me is the "not castable without a stone". I fired up an OpEE to test and I definitely came very close to losing my primary offense - having gotten down to 4 stones at one point, before finding some more. I then bounced around between 20-50 stones, finally dying with 26 stones (morgue). I definitely felt pressure to develop a melee skill or to risk casting stone arrow earlier, which could be viewed as either a positive or a negative depending on how you feel about forcing such a style. I personally prefer to hold on to sandblast for as long as possible on my EE's because it's a very steep jump from 1 mana per spell to 3 mana per spell and even when I have stone arrow at 10% or less failure, I often don't have a large enough mana pool to risk 3 mana to cast stone arrow for a few more levels.

And even if the average case is that you find enough stones to cast sandblast, remember half of games will find less than that, and I'm afraid the bottom quarter or so of games will experience a pretty severe shortage. I've only so far done the one test game, but I'll probably fire up a few more after posting this, and I'd love to collect more playtesting feedback here. Depending on how the devteam feels about the risk of EE"s having no stones (ie, should you have to plan for this and get a melee attack or stone arrow, or is this an undesirable side effect), it could probably be solved by further increasing EE starting stones. Honestly the increase to 30 seems pretty trivial to me - I had expected it would be closer to 50.

[tasonir]

As an experiement I tried playing another EE without attempting to conserve stones - and I'm now out of stones on D:3, having used a pretty high amount to go through Robin's pack of goblins. I'm level 4 and have been training earth magic, which puts stone arrow at 21% fail, with 7 max mana (octopode). This is probably sub-optimal considering the recent changes, I should have either invested in spellcasting/conjurations, or a melee skill, and definitely conserved stones where possible. Since octopodes have constriction, I managed to 0-skill melee the next couple of monsters until I found both a goblin with a sling and a floor-stack of stones in the same room, and while I ended up using nearly all of them before moving up to stone arrow (thanks to a ring of magical power) around level 7 or so.

It does seem like EE's will now want to use unskilled/low skilled melee on single early monsters rather than casting. I'd consider that to be frustrating when you want to be an earth mage, but perhaps that's only fair considering how strong the stone-supported version of sandblast is?

[Turukano]

finally dying with 26 stones (morgue).

  Code:

k - a scroll of teleportation


  Code:

y - a wand of disintegration (10/24)


  Code:

f - 4 scrolls of identify

j - a potion of ambrosia {unknown}
n - a potion of invisibility {unknown}
s - a potion of flight {unknown}
u - a potion of might
v - a potion of brilliance {unknown}
A - a potion of agility {unknown}


Note that brilliance and LRD could have been interesting.

[tasonir]

Wand of disint would probably have been a great move, since it was an ice beast, but I wasn't too concerned with trying to be optimal, mostly just testing out stone availability

[Siegurt]

Yeah, I've run a couple EE's since the change, for similar reasons, I've found that so far when I play "normally" I have come somewhat close to running out of stones a few times, but never quite running out, then shot up in supply. I suspect after some playtesting the number of starting stones will probably end up around 27-35, maybe as high as 40,but I doubt it will go that high.

I suspect some novice EEs may die due to running out of stones and having no other viable offense, however this will probably be more than countered by the number of novices who wouldn't use stones when they probably should have and died as a result, as using non-stone wielding sandblast was almost never optimal (I anticipate even with no other changes this will slightly increase the getting-to-temple rate for EEs.)

[Nekoatl]

I really dislike the idea of losing access to the spell entirely if the supply of stones runs out. If it has to be locked into a single power level, I'd prefer it never use stones. But, I'd much rather Sandblast check the quiver for stones (or large rocks! ), which would solve the problems of wasting turns weapon-swapping and of not being able to wield a staff of earth and a pile of stones simultaneously.

[Neqoxexings]

Does it has to be locked until you find stones? It could at least become weakened much like it was before, just now you don't have to wield stones manually every time.
Or you can just... [i][i][i]remove stones[/i][/i][/i]. Or at least remove the requirement for having stones at all. Because of stones it's already one of the most uncomfortable spells, which becomes almost entirely useless later in anyway because of the severe AC damage reduction. Garbage, compared to Flame Tongue.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Nothing surprising here, EE is almost identical to Hu now, with the same gameplay and problems except it is even more problematic because Sandblast has much lower range and thus should deal more damage than an arrow or bolt. I hope Okawaru will be changed to gift stones to characters with Sandblast like it does for characters with launchers.

[Sprucery]

as using non-stone wielding sandblast was almost never optimal

I am pretty sure that no-stone sandblast was optimal against at least bats, rats, weaponless goblins etc. I definitely used a lot of stoneless sandblast on D:1 and 2.

Now the question is, if the player is given enough stones to survive the early levels, why have the stone requirement at all? It made sense when you could choose whether to use a stone or not. Imo it's pretty awful that an early game character can be crippled by not being able to cast their primary attack spell. At least then EEs should be given a melee weapon and some skill to start with.

So in my opinion either
1) get rid of the stone requirement or
2) keep the stone requirement and give about 20 - 30 stones but also a weapon+skill.

[Siegurt]

as using non-stone wielding sandblast was almost never optimal

I am pretty sure that no-stone sandblast was optimal against at least bats, rats, weaponless goblins etc. I definitely used a lot of stoneless sandblast on D:1 and 2.

I would typically use an untrained weapon over stoneless sandblast for those things. Keeping the mana handy in case something worth killing with stones wandered by seemed like a better plan to me, and if it can't kill you no matter what you do, you might as well not spend the MP.

I suppose stoneless sandblast was worth using before you had found any weapons, but at that point rats/bats might actually be worth using stones on.

[tasonir]

I'm surprised people didn't use stoneless sandblast much before - I would say I cast it without stones more often than with. I typically saved stones for more dangerous early mobs like gnolls/adders/uniques, and used stoneless for hobgoblins and similar, even jackals if I was above level 1, etc. At least until I had built up ~100 stones, and then it was rockblast everything until I switched to stone arrow...

[removeelyvilon]

why not simply make it cast the downpowered version if you have no stones in inventory

no quivering stones anymore and no ammo worries, it's best of both worlds

SeemsGood Buddha

[tasonir]

why not simply make it cast the downpowered version if you have no stones in inventory

no quivering stones anymore and no ammo worries, it's best of both worlds

SeemsGood Buddha

While I do agree this is a good plan, I think they didn't want to encourage players to drop stones to conserve them, then pick them back up later. This would allow you to choose which to cast and so it's technically optimal. Of course it takes a turn and it could backfire if you drop your stones and then something dangerous appears, but hey.

I'd probably prefer the version where it goes off if stones are quivered - no chance to forget and leave stones behind, and quivering/unquivering is instant/not an action.

[yesno]

I tried one EE and it was... OK, i guess? I didn't run out of stones any faster than I normally would (died for unrelated reasons midgame). Mainly I played EE the same way I usually would, except I used unskilled melee instead of unpowered sandblast to kill trivial threats. So the main result was that trivial threats remained trivial but took longer to kill, and I still had enough stones for when I needed them. I don't hate it but I don't really like it.

I don't think EE would be overpowered if it could just cast powered sandblast without any ammo. It would be an easier and more thoughtless start for careless/new players who screwed up by wasting their stones on bats, rats, unarmed goblins and whatever, though.

[Elitist]

I don't think EE would be overpowered if it could just cast powered sandblast without any ammo. It would be an easier and more thoughtless start for careless/new players who screwed up by wasting their stones on bats, rats, unarmed goblins and whatever, though.

Sandblast does pretty formidable damage against low AC threats. Hobgoblin (with a weapon), adder, and ogre come to mind. I don't think EE is overpowered, but I think having it powered at all times may make their early game a little too easy, MP management included. Is that a bad thing?

[yesno]

I don't think EE would be overpowered if it could just cast powered sandblast without any ammo. It would be an easier and more thoughtless start for careless/new players who screwed up by wasting their stones on bats, rats, unarmed goblins and whatever, though.

Sandblast does pretty formidable damage against low AC threats. Hobgoblin (with a weapon), adder, and ogre come to mind. I don't think EE is overpowered, but I think having it powered at all times may make their early game a little too easy, MP management included. Is that a bad thing?

well the thing is that stuff like armed hobgoblin, adder, and ogre are the only sorts of things you should really reserve your stones for as an EE... so the main challenge of early EE is to know what is too trivial to waste your stones on, so that you have them left over when you need them. the result is that, as long as you know this, EE is a very reliable start. so... powering sandblast without stones would not make EE strictly better... but it would make it easier for new players who don't need to learn how to manage stone supply i guess.

[yesno]

after playing around with it a bit more i like it. the early game is only a little more tedious, and this is totally outweighed by how convenient it is to be able to cast sandblast at any time through the midgame without having to wield stones first.

[Elitist]

I don't think EE would be overpowered if it could just cast powered sandblast without any ammo. It would be an easier and more thoughtless start for careless/new players who screwed up by wasting their stones on bats, rats, unarmed goblins and whatever, though.

Sandblast does pretty formidable damage against low AC threats. Hobgoblin (with a weapon), adder, and ogre come to mind. I don't think EE is overpowered, but I think having it powered at all times may make their early game a little too easy, MP management included. Is that a bad thing?

well the thing is that stuff like armed hobgoblin, adder, and ogre are the only sorts of things you should really reserve your stones for as an EE... so the main challenge of early EE is to know what is too trivial to waste your stones on, so that you have them left over when you need them. the result is that, as long as you know this, EE is a very reliable start. so... powering sandblast without stones would not make EE strictly better... but it would make it easier for new players who don't need to learn how to manage stone supply i guess.

Oh, well, yeah. I guess you're right.

Maybe powered and unpowered could be toggled on and off by quivering stones, and that could allow Tr/Og/Fo to use large rocks for sandblast.