Remove or rework demonspawn monstrous mutations

[nanoswimz]

Demonspawn have a bad time due a low apptitudes, i dont undestand why he should get punishments for leveling.

Losing bodyslots for strange "auxiliary attacks" which i never see in action didnt worth it.

So, my ideas:

Horns - 10%/20%/30% bonus hp. You tought like a bull.

Hooves - fast movement. You run like a horse.

Talons - dunno, but something like that.

[Shard1697]

Bonus HP is already a tier 3 mutation, and it's both incredibly strong and kind of dull in many people's eyes. It shouldn't be replicated.
Fast movement is the single strongest thing you can have in the game(while also being annoying to use to its full potential by kiting constantly), to the point where I don't believe fast species should exist-and that aside having a tier 1 Ds mut that gave you fast movement would be quite busted.

More importantly bodyslot mutations are already undervalued, the extra damage you get from aux attacks is significant.

[removeelyvilon]

yeah because rarely triggering an extra attack that only works in melee, hits for cotton ball damage and doesn't scale sure is worth losing 3+ AC and egos and also perfectly reflects the endless possibilities of what you could do with the power to mimic aspects of animals

[VeryAngryFelid]

Those 3+ AC are almost meaningless late game when you finally lose the body slot, before that you still can use boots/hat/gloves just fine and/or enjoy your increased melee output.
If you are a pure caster, don't be a pure caster, many Ds mutations really encourage going hybrid.

Edit. Personally I treat losing body slot as a minor penalty for being awesome late game.

[removeelyvilon]

Those 3+ AC are almost meaningless late game when you finally lose the body slot, before that you still can use boots/hat/gloves just fine and/or enjoy your increased melee output.
If you are a pure caster, don't be a pure caster, many Ds mutations really encourage going hybrid.

Edit. Personally I treat losing body slot as a minor penalty for being awesome late game.

exactly it's an annoying way to tone down Ds power but if you get monstrous you are screwed

[Siegurt]

yeah because rarely triggering an extra attack that only works in melee, hits for cotton ball damage and doesn't scale sure is worth losing 3+ AC and egos and also perfectly reflects the endless possibilities of what you could do with the power to mimic aspects of animals

FWIW Aux attacks do scale with fighting and strength and are effected by slaying, and the odds of them triggering are (str+dex):50

[Nekoatl]

They can also trigger on riposte strikes. >:D

[luckless]

I do quit whenever I get monstrous, but that's because I (a) am a bad/lazy player, (b) like items more than winning, and (c) irrationally hate unarmed. A monstrous Ds berserker or transmuter does just fine.

[dassem]

I do quit whenever I get monstrous, but that's because I (a) am a bad/lazy player, (b) like items more than winning, and (c) irrationally hate unarmed. A monstrous Ds berserker or transmuter does just fine.

Yup, this is pretty much my view!

The thing I really don't understand is: Why do monstrous DS lose the scales slot? That sounds less 'monstrous' to me.

Basically monstrous swaps the scales facets for the 'loss' of 2 extra body slots. If it was an addition, then there would be the chance of getting, for example, rugged brown scales (+3AC +7%HP) also, which is similar to the OP's suggestion. I think the fundamental problem is that the body slots are often a neutral/bad trade (would you usually prefer hooves or boots of running?) whereas the scales and tier facets are mostly a nice bonus. It does feel that unless you've made the 'right' background choice, getting monstrous results in an annoying challenge game. In some ways, I'd almost like them as separate species, but cannot see that happening.

Personally, I'd just give them the scales facet. So that will typically give you a bit of an AC boost, making up for the slot loss.
If you wanted to make monstrous more desirable, I'd then give them a small UC skill boost or a strength bonus at the same time. Both of those feel a bit more in the monstrous theme.

[milski]

I would say that the people who claim monstrous demonspawn aux attacks are undervalued are absolutely correct; they're quite good lategame.

However, I would also say the people who claim aux attacks are undervalued are massively undervaluing artifacts. A good pair of artifact boots or an artifact hat is massively better than the aux attacks, especially if it offers ranged defense.

Maybe horns are better than 3 AC, but they aren't better than 3 AC and Mr+++ and 3 strength, or whatever.

[VeryAngryFelid]

My problem with monstrous Ds is not low damage output, my problem with it is lack of defense. If I wanted to play Tr, I would play Tr. I don't quit monstrous Ds though, but the game gets much harder and more time-consuming due to extra luring and resting.

[Rast]

However, I would also say the people who claim aux attacks are undervalued are massively undervaluing artifacts.

Agreed. This is one of those things that varies a lot depending on what floorgod or oka/gozag gives you.

[Turukano]

Ds is a very popular species and there are lots of discussions in The Tavern about Ds mutations, the most recent was Make monstrous DS grow claws first.

Maybe horns are better than 3 AC, but they aren't better than 3 AC and Mr+++ and 3 strength, or whatever.

My problem with monstrous Ds is not low damage output, my problem with it is lack of defense.

As monstrous Ds you probably want unarmed combat and statue form. Then you'll get AC and resists, not mentioning the offensive power. This is more or less a no-brainer if

1. you find the spell,
2. get some buff to cast it (wizardry, Ash, Chei) and
3. want to go for 15 runes.

I'm not sure if players looking for 3 runes will agree because statue form needs XP investment that you might want to spend somewhere else in a 3-runer.

[kuniqs]

If you get monstrous Ds then learn Song of Slaying and put it to use instead of bitching.

[Quazifuji]

I feel like one of the things this thread shows is that aux attacks may be a bit too spoilery/opaque, they can be potentially powerful but it can also be very hard to feel their benefit. But maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

[prozacelf]

They can also trigger on riposte strikes. >:D

Hilariously, Na/Op constriction does too.