Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak


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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 3rd December 2016, 15:55

Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Suggestion:

-Change all ogre spell school aptitudes to zero.
-Optional: Put all their weapon/UC aptitudes to zero too except maybe +1 M&F and probably leave ranged weapons as they are.
-Slightly lower other aptitues if you deem it necessary to compensete (Fighting down to 1, perhaps); personally I think "balance" is a complete non-issue as races/backgrounds/gods etc.
aren't meassured against each other as far as I am concerned. Let the player choose with he wants to play an "easy" or a "hard" race or whatever.

Pros:

-Less one-dimensional character with more options
-Clear distinction between ogre and troll (one is good at magic, the other one... not so much).
-Salvage at least in part good, fun, interesting, awesome idea that got put to an undeserved early grave by the whining of the vitriol vets for no good reason.
-Did it always annoy you that NPC ogres are very proficient at magic but player ogres aren't? Me too. That +1 spellcasting and ogres not being as dumb as others think finally would have some meaning.
-OgreMcGee

Cons:

-None

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Post Saturday, 3rd December 2016, 17:21

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

When I started playing, there was an ogre mage race. It was later merged with ogres. It was one of those very slowly level advancing races with good aptitudes. I don't know how different they are from Basa-, I haven't played trunk.
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Post Saturday, 3rd December 2016, 19:38

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

pro: it would take about 60 seconds of dev time to make the needed changes in aptitudes.h, and maybe another 60 seconds to revert it a couple months down the line if the devs don't like the results.

Trunk isn't just for game ruining bugs and unfun enemies, it's also for testing out exactly this kind of suggestion.

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Post Saturday, 3rd December 2016, 20:07

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Make a patch!

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Post Sunday, 4th December 2016, 15:17

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

save... the.. high.. elves..

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Post Sunday, 4th December 2016, 16:13

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Reminder that Ogres don't need compensating melee nerfs because they are not actually that good.
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Post Sunday, 4th December 2016, 18:10

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Ogres don't need their M/F aptitude to be higher than other weapon aptitudes, since access to giant (spiked) clubs already makes this the clear choice. No reason to further penalize players if they want to use other weapons for some reason.

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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 13:21

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Just make every other weapon one-handed. That's consistent with handedness and size.

No reason to change melee apts in that case.
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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 15:20

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

PowerOfKaishin wrote:Just make every other weapon one-handed. That's consistent with handedness and size.

No reason to change melee apts in that case.


Nice, but then formicids would probably disappear.
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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 15:46

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

it's a win/win
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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 15:47

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

don't bully my ants

you can remove digging from them if you want though
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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 15:55

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Shard1697 wrote:don't bully my ants

you can remove digging from them if you want though


Can we also make them large and give them big clubs?
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 18:15

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

luckless wrote:Ogres don't need their M/F aptitude to be higher than other weapon aptitudes, since access to giant (spiked) clubs already makes this the clear choice. No reason to further penalize players if they want to use other weapons for some reason.


Fine by me.

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Post Tuesday, 6th December 2016, 05:48

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Airwolf wrote:Make a patch!

Fine!
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/421

I didn't do anything to weapon apts, as IMO that is more controversial.

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Post Tuesday, 6th December 2016, 20:11

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Shtopit wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:Just make every other weapon one-handed. That's consistent with handedness and size.

No reason to change melee apts in that case.


Nice, but then formicids would probably disappear.


Formicids still have stasis.

If anything they should just be able to use all 4 arms for giant clubs. Make their weapon selection consistent with a large race (after changing that as well).

For extra fun, let them throw giant rocks.

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 11:07

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

luckless wrote:No reason to further penalize players if they want to use other weapons for some reason.


Player S: Oh no, a Troll's +0 UC apt is penalizing me if I want to use other weapons. Hmmm... what should I do? Oh I know! I'll just send a complaint at the devs to lower their UC apt so I can satisfy my guilt-free desire of using weapons of all kinds with Balanced Apts™ on a Troll *spouts optimal plan*

Very Talented CrawlDev: Wow that's actually a brilliant idea! Balanced Apts™ should be maintained at all times I quite agree with this. More weapon options are opened for everyone for more interesting builds and tactical situations! Actually, I've already laid out this brilliant Balanced Apts™ rework for Trolls:

-2 Fighting
-2 Short Blades
-2 Long Blades
-2 Axes
-2 Mace & Flails
-2 Polearms
-2 Staves
-2 Unarmed Combat

-3 Bows
-3 Crossbows
-2 Throwing
-2 Slings

Player S: Thank you very much Very Talented CrawlDev that surely fixed my issue! Now I could partake in a guilt-free game in Trolls to use other weapons with Balanced Apts™!

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 11:10

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

careful with that strawman, it's looking a bit rough around the edges
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 08:03

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

PowerOfKaishin wrote:
Shtopit wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:Just make every other weapon one-handed. That's consistent with handedness and size.

No reason to change melee apts in that case.


Nice, but then formicids would probably disappear.


Formicids still have stasis.

If anything they should just be able to use all 4 arms for giant clubs. Make their weapon selection consistent with a large race (after changing that as well).

For extra fun, let them throw giant rocks.

this please
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 08:20

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

xXxMemekMaestro69xXx wrote:
luckless wrote:No reason to further penalize players if they want to use other weapons for some reason.


Player S: Oh no, a Troll's +0 UC apt is penalizing me if I want to use other weapons. Hmmm... what should I do? Oh I know! I'll just send a complaint at the devs to lower their UC apt so I can satisfy my guilt-free desire of using weapons of all kinds with Balanced Apts™ on a Troll *spouts optimal plan*

Very Talented CrawlDev: Wow that's actually a brilliant idea! Balanced Apts™ should be maintained at all times I quite agree with this. More weapon options are opened for everyone for more interesting builds and tactical situations! Actually, I've already laid out this brilliant Balanced Apts™ rework for Trolls:

-2 Fighting
-2 Short Blades
-2 Long Blades
-2 Axes
-2 Mace & Flails
-2 Polearms
-2 Staves
-2 Unarmed Combat

-3 Bows
-3 Crossbows
-2 Throwing
-2 Slings

Player S: Thank you very much Very Talented CrawlDev that surely fixed my issue! Now I could partake in a guilt-free game in Trolls to use other weapons with Balanced Apts™!
This would be a great change, except the throwing and unarmed apts are still too high.

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 00:36

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Weapon types do not really change your melee tactics unless you are using summoning + reaching. I do not understand why people obsess over the idea of weapon apts as being especially problematic, its purpose is presumably to lock you out of some percentage of weapons through negative apts, or overwhelmingly positive ones (which also make said race more powerful), and to force a decision on weapon class to prevent changing weapons when a pre-enchanted weapon or artefact weapon drops.

I don't think there's any inherent value in this, e.g. Sil lets you use whatever weapon you find on the ground, different weapons are optimal for different situations and you will probably use whatever class your race has an affinity for, but you can pick up an axe and use it well if you want to provided you have trained Melee - so a 2h might be useful for high protection enemies and so on. Just because something is a decision does not necessarily mean it is good, or should be one. To be fair, the weapon weight/die system means different weapons are optimal for different stat distributions and different situations, a state of affairs that will not be replicated in crawl due to the melee combat formulae - you will almost always want to use the biggest weapon you can unless you have access to a demon weapon of electrocution or pain and can't afford to invest 20+ levels into weapon skill.
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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 15:00

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Guys, guys. Ignore everything I wrote about weapon apts. I only mentioned that because my twitch chat senses told me that somebody would Go "OMEG Ogre so OP don't make them more OP LUL."

Since that didn't happen, let's focus on the important thing at hand: Ogre McGee for president 2017.

The level of suck of weapon choice and apts in crawl is for another thread.

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 19:21

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Your most important Pros "Clear distinction..." is invalid. I already stated why that's false. There is already a clear distinction between them and you may be just refusing to accept that it is one. Ogres even have +1 Spellcasting while Trolls have -5 Spellcasting which is already a very clear distinction that implies ogres can cast spells much earlier/easier and get more spells due to spell levels at the same time than a Troll. While FREE Ogre buffs are appreciated, I doubt they wouldn't let anything whatever very good things an Ogre has untouched and that most probably would be a nerf on either Fighting or Maces or Spellcasting apts. Request for buffing something without consequences is most of the time, just wishful thinking.

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 08:24

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

PowerOfKaishin wrote:
Shtopit wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:Just make every other weapon one-handed. That's consistent with handedness and size.

No reason to change melee apts in that case.


Nice, but then formicids would probably disappear.


Formicids still have stasis.

If anything they should just be able to use all 4 arms for giant clubs. Make their weapon selection consistent with a large race (after changing that as well).

For extra fun, let them throw giant rocks.


IIRC, the original iteration of Formicids could use giant clubs and large rocks. Somewhere along the line it was decided that it should probably not be allowed, although I don't recall the specific logic behind that decision.

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 10:04

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

To differentiate them more from ogres.
http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 74ec8ee87f

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 12:05

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

stickyfingers wrote:To differentiate them more from ogres.
http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 74ec8ee87f


I understand the logic but still don't see why it was necessary to make that distinction. Ogre can't wear body armour either.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 05:42

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Ogres now have -1 M&F, 0 other weapons, and -1 spellcasting apts:

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8 ... 4f59bc6b8b
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 05:51

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

ogres don't have 0 short blades/long blades/axes you fool!!!

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:08

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

I'm glad this change make Og and Tr more distinct rather than adding another overlapping race.

However, what about changing the +str every 3 level with +int\+str on coinflip? That would increase their definition as race more geared towards casting.

(a very personal concern that is very secondary is that -1 m&f means now gsc has really no reason to exist and that is most probably better to not use gc for any Og except Be)
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:25

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

well postend still exists so

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:42

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Well yes but in sake of postend also firestorm could be considered a good spell.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:05

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Just so you know, -1 Maces & Flails apt doesn't mean anything because you will still go for giant clubs, just not the spiked ones. I think I actually agree with uh... I think it was minmay, about the fact that you'd need to lower the apt to -3 to force player into actual choices. Please don't do this by the way.

On the other hand better magic apts are welcome, though maybe they are a bit too monotone and similar to those of demonspawns and demigods.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:25

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Or you could boost the other weapon skills up to -1 as well(why have them so low in the first place?)

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:54

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Shard1697 wrote:Or you could boost the other weapon skills up to -1 as well(why have them so low in the first place?)


Why do you think it is? Have you even asked yourself if it's logical for a large creature to stab things with a dagger? Or does it make sense for them to be able to use a high precision bow/crossbows/slings with those large fingers while being able to load those small arrows/bolts/stones when they can't even wield a buckler at all? It's already a thematic stretch that they're even allowed to use them, or doesn't even have -5 apt.

That's the whole reason why Ogres having their large clubs apt completely suited to their body build getting nerfed to the ground is just pure nonsense. They're still forcing to remodel our glorious Ogres into their dumb Basajaunak without once again, being reasonable at all.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:21

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

I agree, it would be really tragic if this fantasy game about killing monsters was made less realistic for the sake of gameplay.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:36

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

xXxMemekMaestro69xXx wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:Or you could boost the other weapon skills up to -1 as well(why have them so low in the first place?)


Why do you think it is? Have you even asked yourself if it's logical for a large creature to stab things with a dagger? Or does it make sense for them to be able to use a high precision bow/crossbows/slings with those large fingers while being able to load those small arrows/bolts/stones when they can't even wield a buckler at all? It's already a thematic stretch that they're even allowed to use them, or doesn't even have -5 apt.

I don't give a shit about any of this. Crawl is not a simulationist game, and it should not be, because simulationist games are broadly speaking not fun. When I say "why" I mean "why" from a game design standpoint, not a "how big are ogre's hands compared to weapon handles anyways" theoretical logic puzzle(you will notice we don't have any real information on the sizes of either of those things except very broad strokes wrt comparing them to some other things-presumably, a great sword is bigger than a longsword because it's 2H, but we have no goddamn idea the actual measurements of either, because decisions are not made around that on the dev or player size).

I mean god if you actually pursued this line of reasoning the only conclusion you could come to would be "they should be able to use 2-handers/'big weapons' ala great maces, exec axes etc. of all weapon types more easily, smaller 1-handers less easily" not "benefit specifically M&F weapons of all sizes, hurt everything else". if the problem is "ogres hands to big for the gotdamn weapon" why are they good at learning all mace weapons including puny little maces, clubs whips and flails, not just big ones, and bad at learning how to use bigass swords and bardiches and shit which would logically be easier? more importantly, why on earth does it matter

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:50

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Hellmonk wrote:I agree, it would be really tragic if this fantasy game about killing monsters was made less realistic for the sake of gameplay.


So what's the point of positive and negative aptitudes then except for +0 ? Why do Nagas have +5 stealth despite being a large race? Why do Halflings even have +4 in sling apts? Why do Merfolks have -3 in their Fire apt while their Ice apt is +1? Why do Centaurs have +3 in Bows while they have +1 on a pretty similar ranged weapon, crossbows? More importantly where did the devs get these apt ideas? Surely from some fantasy texts most people and even you don't care about and not real in any way yet why are they here?

I won't even be surprised if Merfolks suddenly get -2 polearm apts now because "lmao this gameplay" along with some zombies spouting "idc lol". Truly amusing
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:54

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

You are correct, merfolks should have weapon apts flattened as well as centaurs. Nagas have gameplay reasons to have high stealth though, not sure why that's part of your post.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 15:00

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

BTW I support the idea of Formicids and Ogres as relatively similar sister species with Ogres not getting medium or heavy armour until they kill a dragon and Formicids getting armour but impeded by stasis. Both with one handed 2h, big maces, eased shield investment and rather average aptitudes.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 17:10

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Christmas came early!

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Thanks Rast for the patch and thanks devs for the commit and thanks guys for ideas.
Changing M&F from +3 to -1 seems a little harsh on paper, but we will see how it plays out.
This is undoubtedly a great a rework regardless. I'm excited for OgreMcGee!

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 18:32

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

I feel I should toss in my two cents regarding apts.

Aptitudes are a way of differentiating species. While they may seem rather crude because they cut off options (Sp have bad apts with every powerhouse-esque skill) or make certain options way more appealing (Mf have great polearms and tmut+uc), in practice that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Merfolk having amazing polearms and decent tmut+uc discourages other classes or playstyles for the optimal player choosing to play one, but I think a lot of people find it fun to be able to get those skills fairly high fairly quickly and be able to see returns on them way faster.

Similarly, Spriggans having crappy weapon aptitudes and bad magic apts in the skills or schools that deal lots of damage makes them have more well-defined weaknesses. Ignoring the fact that the current implementation might not reflect this, the aptitudes seem to beget the intent that this be the case. It's not feasible to stab everything to death, and while Sp branching off into hexes is something that works in a lot of later areas (such as Vaults or Depths), they will have problems in Zot. OoFs are super scary for Sp not just because OoFs can kill them quickly, but also because Sp has no good answer to dealing with them (running past them with rF+++ while hasted is not an answer lol). Sp eventually reach a point where they have to invest in a crappy apt to kill stuff. It's actually a rather subtle weakness and I'm surprised no one talks about it.

Though it may not have been the intention for it, the removal of Singularity reinforced this weakness. If that was part of the intent for its removal, it was actually a pretty ingenious nerf.

While I will miss the +3 maces and flails apts, flattening the weapon and spellcasting apts of Og may have been an overall good decision. However, I think doing this to all races is a mistake. If the devs did that, apts would be more like a balance feature than the basis for a strength or weakness. Certain races having interesting, unique things about them, whether they are strengths, weaknesses, or a mixture of the two is what makes them interesting. Aptitudes should for the most part fall under that IMO. I feel making them a balance feature is the wrong way to go.

P.S. Please don't get distracted by the validity of the analogies with Mf and Sp. Not the place for it.
Last edited by PowerOfKaishin on Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 18:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 18:33

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Leszczynek wrote:Just so you know, -1 Maces & Flails apt doesn't mean anything because you will still go for giant clubs,


It's still a big nerf in the early game. You won't be able to train M&F up so quickly.

Ironically, this mean less xp available for your spell skills...

I wish they had differentiated spell skills (as in my patch) instead of making them all the same across the board.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 20:48

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

I agree with -1 in spells, because having -3 everywhere along with poor Int made it veeery hard to play a pure spellcaster Ogre.

Why -1 in Maces & Clubs, though? Did 0 or +1 put duvessa into a nervous breakdown again or something?
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 22:24

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

nago wrote:(a very personal concern that is very secondary is that -1 m&f means now gsc has really no reason to exist and that is most probably better to not use gc for any Og except Be)
Possibly this should be its own thread instead, but:
I posit that, practically speaking, it's almost never optimal to attack with a triple sword, bardiche, great mace, executioner's axe, or giant spiked club.
Bardiche and executioner's axe, compared to glaive and battleaxe, trade 3 base delay (and 3 or 2 accuracy) for a 20% increase in base damage. It takes twice as many skill points to reach minimum delay for a bardiche or executioner's axe as it does to reach minimum delay for a glaive or battleaxe, and at 20 skill a glaive or battleaxe is always better than the equivalent bardiche or executioner's axe under reasonable conditions (i.e. not "0 fighting and 1 str against a stone giant"). They typically break even between 22 and 24 skill. And since the bigger weapons are much rarer, usually you aren't comparing a bardiche to the equivalent glaive; you're comparing the bardiche to a glaive with better enchantment/brand, especially since you should have been putting all your enchant weapon scrolls into that glaive.

So to justify a triple sword over a great sword, a bardiche over a glaive, a great mace over a dire flail, an executioner's axe over a battleaxe, or a giant spiked club over a giant club, you not only need to be lucky enough to find a really good one (better than the 20 glaives that generated first), you need to justify an experience investment that is extremely disproportionate to the damage increase (100% more xp for 20% more base damage), compared to the investment you made to use, say, a battleaxe at min delay instead of a war axe at min delay (70% more xp for 36% more base damage) or a war axe at min delay instead of a hand axe at min delay (36% more xp for 57% more base damage). Unless the bardiche you found is so good that it's better than all your glaives even at low skill, but then you have to get even luckier - this pretty much only happens with acquirement.

There is one other situation where a bardiche is way better than a glaive: when your skill is very low. At 0 skill, bigger weapons are pretty much always better. Great maces are even better than dire flails at 0 skill, which is impressive considering that they're often worse at 20 skill...
Unfortunately for those big weapons, the part of the game where you are likely to have a bardiche/triple sword/etc. has no overlap whatsoever with the part of the game where you are likely to have less than 10 weapon skill. (Unless your character never planned on training a weapon skill at all, but in that case doesn't matter what you wield anyway).

The obvious response to this is "but duvessa then why do i always see you wielding triple swords???" and the answer is that I value killing things in fewer keypresses, enough that I will gimp my characters' actual power for it. It's the same thing that leads me to train skills to 27 or get level 8+ conjuration spells. I imagine it's the same for a lot of other players. There might be some misinformation about, or memetic value in, the biggest weapons as well, but I think the effect of that is small (most of the people who don't understand melee damage end up wielding smaller weapons than they should, not bigger weapons than they should).

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 00:22

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

The same situation happens with basically any skill (spend twice more XP to get 15% more AC, 15% more EV etc.) so late game many characters want that triple sword etc. at min delay because training anything gives even less marginal value.
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 02:03

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

PowerOfKaishin wrote:
Aptitudes are a way of differentiating species

...well-defined weaknesses.


You can be very confident that the devs simply have no idea about this top secret info. Differences are apparently foreign otherworldly ideas to them, makes sense that a variety of races and even the latest ogre mage patch has either +0 or -1s lazily spread across the whole board of either their magic or melee apts.

By the way, I'm still waiting for that dank 1 (one) valid reason why the M/F apt need changing.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 02:13

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

Here's a valid reason: With previous ogre apts, there was never a reason to not use a GC/GSC. Now, there is more uncertainty over what weapon you should use.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 02:14

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

nago wrote:I'm glad this change make Og and Tr more distinct rather than adding another overlapping race.

However, what about changing the +str every 3 level with +int\+str on coinflip? That would increase their definition as race more geared towards casting.

(a very personal concern that is very secondary is that -1 m&f means now gsc has really no reason to exist and that is most probably better to not use gc for any Og except Be)



Two points:
a) +Str is better for casting in heavy armor than +Int is (most Ogre-sized armors, though there's space for new ones)
b) I expect that -1 to change to a +1 or +2 very soon. It's clearly wrong

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 03:07

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

chequers wrote:Here's a valid reason: With previous ogre apts, there was never a reason to not use a GC/GSC. Now, there is more uncertainty over what weapon you should use.


Invalid. You are always allowed to use other weapons like staves, polearms and UC if your build is different. Oh don't worry I know what you're going to say next. The "+3 apts" amirite? The high M/F apt is clearly oppressing your freedom of choice to go for other melee choice because, well it's high and THAT is your only reason correct? Please fix this self-destructive attitude of yours because that is clearly incorrect. While it's true that high MF apt and large clubs are attractive, it is also true that there is clearly nothing in the way of stopping you from using other melee play styles except for plain stubbornness.

Invalid. Large clubs are and always has been tailored to Ogres both in a gameplay and thematic perspective. The NotOgreMages are still most suited to large clubs than any other weapon because it is the only 2H weapon unique to the species and gives both the most average damage to exp investment for skill 18 giant clubs and the most damage potential in the game for lvl 24 mindelay GSC. Also if you didn't notice, large clubs of both kinds are as common as hotcakes and this is most probably one of the main contributors why Ogres should always use them.

Yet despite knowing and being aware (they should) of these critical informations on why ogres are most suited to large clubs, the devs still proceeded to nerf that one specific trademark apt because of unknown reasons or... oh wait, I just have an idea why. It's that dumb no-brainer meme again that is as Invalid as ever. Well guess what, even with this -1 M/F apt, you still have changed nothing clearly contradicting yourselves and the greater you lower it, the greater your reputation would be as completely unreasonable devs.

Please stop forcing your Ogre Mages/Basajaunak in the game and being completely unreasonable in general. The caster races are very strong enough as it is because you refuse to balance spells and their low max hp are needed to offset them.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 03:13

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

ok i think this is a few too many serious responses to a troll account
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 03:26

Re: Let Ogre inherit the will of the Basajaunak

there is clearly nothing in the way of stopping you from using other melee play styles except for plain stubbornness.

The point I'm trying to make is that with previous aptitudes, m&f is not the only weapon type, but it is always the optimal weapon type.

[Ogres] are still most suited to large clubs than any other weapon because it is the only 2H weapon unique to the species and gives both the most average damage to exp investment for skill 18 giant clubs and the most damage potential in the game for lvl 24 mindelay GSC

I think this is not true. For a melee-focused build, m&f is pretty clearly still the right choice. But for a build that wants to use XP elsewhere, you may want to pick another weapon like qstaff or polearm that requires much less XP investment.
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