Demonspawn revamp suggestion

[Rast]

Inspired by this other thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22332

My thoughts:
* Aux-slot mutations are boring. Most of them are "extra melee damage if you don't wear an item in the aux slot, then at rank three you lose the aux slot. it's good with slaying and bad with polearms and horrible with spells or ranged". Props to whoever came up with antennae.
* Monstrous demonspawn are very different from the other 90% of demonspawn, and in a boring way that many players dislike. Power level is debateable.
* Scales are much like draconian colors in mechanics and flavor. Honestly it feels like dev B saw what dev A had done with draconians and decided to do his own "better" version.
* Demonspawn mutations are neat but you have to play a lot to see them all.

My suggestions:
* Get the idea guys to come up with new aux-slot mutations. It is OK if two or three just do damage, but we need at least a couple more that are interesting.
* Monstrous demonspawn should get rank one in three different aux-slots mutations, but otherwise be identical to regular demonspawn. This might be a tiny bit stronger than normal demonspawn, but that's OK. Also they should be more common, say 25% of the time instead of just 10%.
* Dump most of the scales mutations entirely. Convert the interesting ones (ex: repulsion field and thin skeletal structure) to tier 2 facets.
* Review the tier 2 facets, and convert a few of the stronger ones (ex: PBD) to tier 3 facets
* Every demonspawn gets two tier 2 facets and two tier 3 facets. In other words, trading the scales mutation for a second tier 3 facet.

[luckless]

I'm all for dropping the scales facets, but a second tier 3 facet is a major buff. Why not three tier 2 and one tier 3?

[Rast]

Some of the existing tier 2 facets are already as strong as tier 3 facets. I think we get the most variety of possible combos by making the tier 2 and tier 3 lists roughly equal in size, while putting the stronger ones on the tier 3 list, and giving each demonspawn two from each list.

If this ends up being a significant overall buff, we can give them -1 fighting apt to balance. Or we can just let it be a buff.

[kuniqs]

Give monstrous Ds 1 3lvl body slot and 2lvl slots in others.

[infinitevox]

Aux-slot muts are boring...

- This is a subjective opinion. I happen to like some of them. I do agree that they could be varied more, and I've got several new suggestions to that effect that I'll be putting in my annual "Ds Muts Suggestions" thread here shortly.

Mons Ds should get 1 rank of 3 aux...

- This is a complete nerf to Mons Ds. Claws 1 is no comparison to Claws 3, and Antennae 1 has nothing on Antennae 3. This would straight up gimp Mons Ds and I would even go so far as to say that even fewer people would actually play out a Mons Ds if this change was made.

Scales are much like drac colors, dump most...

- Just no. Scales are amazing. One of my chief complaints about Mons Ds is that they don't get a scales mutation. Scales are also FAR more interesting than Drac colors, as they don't affect your apts (possibly screwing over your build) and there is more variety.

Review t2, convert stronger ones...

- There is a theme in tavern where people massively overvalue PBD as a T2. It is not worth a T3 slot. Due to the nature of mutations, you may not even get your PBD 3 until level 27, most of the time its not completely online till XL 16. Spiny has a stronger effect on early than PBD, as it allows even casters to "tank" creatures they normally couldn't. Spiny falls off late game and PBD gets better when there is a larger mob density (ie, late game when a Ds truly should shine). I agree there may be a couple T3 that should be T2 (I'm looking at you Icemail), but I can honestly say the T2 list feels like everything there belongs.

Two T2 & Two T3, no Scales...

- Again, dumping scales, in my opinion, is a terrible idea. The order in which I do branches directly correlates to which scales facet I get as a Ds. And giving an additional T3.... quite frankly there aren't enough T3 facets to make this interesting or worth it. Powerlevel may creep too high here as well.

To be quite honest, it seems like you had a couple Ds runs that weren't any fun, so you want to change Ds to see if that helps. Instead, try adjusting your playstyle.
That's what playing a Ds is all about: adapting to the mutations you're given as they're given to you, not trying to force a build/playstyle that runs against the mutations you develop.

[stickyfingers]

Antennae 1 has nothing on Antennae 3

Both are terrible compared to damage, but the former at least allows hats.

I agree there may be a couple T3 that should be T2 (I'm looking at you Icemail)

This is probably because icemail is indeed T2. Maybe thinking about passive freeze? This one is indeed quite lackluster. In general, there's not a single T2 mutation that comes close to good T3s, like robust or augmentation. Also, while black mark itself is great, its first two levels are worthless, so this could be looked upon.

[minstrel]

I think you're casting too broad a net here, especially since these reforms aren't likely to have much in the way of ripple effects that necessitate wholesale overhaul. I suspect this will just end up in a CY style throw-it-all-at-the-wall brainstorming session instead of something that could effect changes.

For example, a thread focusing just on your first point, making aux slot mutations something other than "give up slot X, get aux damage", with a list of specific per-slot suggestions to discuss I think could gain a lot of traction.

FWIW, I'm totally on board with that aspect. When I play DS, unless I get antennae, I usually feel like the aux slot is the penalty you pay for all the other cool stuff and hope it shows up early before I lose some cool piece of gear I'd been enjoying.

[syringe]

I think that's a little unfair to OP. Now, too many high-tier mutations (4!) are bound to over-complicate Ds characters. A tight defining set seems best. A reasonable proposition would be to upgrade one of monstrous Ds's tier 2 muts into a tier 3 mut, so they get a single tier 2 mut and two tier 3 muts, as a subtle spin on "monstrosity". They could be nerfed to have only 2 body slot muts, making them basically trade a scales mut and a tier 2 mut, for another body slot mut and another tier 3 mut. Knowing from your first body slot mut that you are guaranteed claws/glovelessness/hatlessness/bootlessness is probably not the greatest design, perhaps not even intended in the first place. I searched and this is the first place I see where multiple tier 3 muts have been proposed. You'd only need to make a stand about conflicting fire/ice facets, which mostly boils down to whether you'd allow simultaneous Passive Freeze and Hellfire. All tier 3 muts are compatible with each other, if you look at what they do.

[infinitevox]

Both are terrible compared to damage, but the former at least allows hats.

I have to disagree here, Antennae 3 is ridiculously strong for stabbers/casters/hybrids. It is, by far, my favorite of the slot-loss mutations. Knowing enemy positions (and relative threat level) without LoS gives a tactical advantage that is unparalleled by any of the other mutations. No, it's not damage. It's the ability to prevent and control how you receive (if at all) any damage.

This is probably because icemail is indeed T2. Maybe thinking about passive freeze? This one is indeed quite lackluster. In general, there's not a single T2 mutation that comes close to good T3s, like robust or augmentation. Also, while black mark itself is great, its first two levels are worthless, so this could be looked upon.

Yes, you're right, I was mixing up Icemail and Passive Freeze. Which could be a solid T3 if it weren't for rC pretty much completely negating the 3rd level of the mutation.
As for Black Mark, it's usefulness really depends on whether or not you plan on going past 3 runes. If you get into extended, levels 1 & 2 are pretty dang useful and level 3 is just icing on the cake (but only if you're a melee, otherwise it's basically worthless)

[stickyfingers]

Knowing enemy positions (and relative threat level)

That's Ash, not antennae. With just the antennae you may know an enemy is there (though I find it unreliable below level 3), but have no idea if it's threatening. Indeed, for a stabber it's still nice, especially with passwall, but to give up horns damage/helmet slot for it otherwise? No.