Some little things to be fixed

[gfgf45550]

Here is a list of some curiosities in game mechanics. They are not bugs at all, but in spite of that they are illogical.

• Please forbid unbreathing species from using blowguns. It is weird, that nobody has fixed it yet.
• Inner flame blasts are counted as friendly fire. Why?
• In 0.19 species need 1,0 auts to eat. Ghouls too. So... Are you really sure, that they should be able to greatly restore their HP in battle without any problems?
• Why do you remove all OP-spells, abilities and combos but minotaurs, gargoyles and Trog are inviolable?

[chequers]

Riposte with two-handed swords? Are you serious? Zweihänders (or other big swords) are simply not suited for thrusting attacks because of their weight and the lack of a long lever.

In crawl you attack killer bees with swords that have three blades.

[Utis]

Even worse: In crawl your "health" is a linear quantity and even when it's reduced your ability to act isn't affected in any way.

[Shard1697]

• Riposte with two-handed swords? Are you serious? Zweihänders (or other big swords) are simply not suited for thrusting attacks because of their weight and the lack of a long lever.

With this sentence you basically expose that you have no knowledge of actual swordfighting or historical weaponry outside of videogames. The kind of sword that people who play too much Dark Souls call a zweihander(which can have other names, but whatever) is in fact quite suited to thrusting attacks. You may be aware of the swordfighting technique known as "half-swording", where the sword is held both at the grip and also further up along the blade in front of the grip, somewhat similar to how you would hold a polearm, for more leverage and accuracy in guiding the point.

^The guy on the right here is half-swording, the guy on the left is performing a "Mordhau"(lit., "murder-stroke")

Knowing this, the main reason behind the "zweihander" design with the extended grip beyond the crossguard and the second crossguard past that becomes clear. It is to facilitate easier half-swording for thrusting attacks with this large weapon by extending the area with a grip as long as your hands are apart while doing this, and adding a a secondary guard for the ricasso to prevent other weapons from sliding down into the hands(and additionally can held bind or upset an opponent's weapon).


It's no coincidence they saw a lot of use alongside pike formations, range is a factor with these weapons and the biggest reason you want a longer sword is the same reason you want a longer polearm-more reach. On that note, I would ask you why you think the weight/length of a zweihander or other large sword would make thrusting attacks impractical, when polearms such as the pike are both significantly heavier and significantly longer than a zweihander, and are designed and used exclusively to thrust.





also it doesn't matter because accuracy is not a design goal of DCSS and if it was the whole game would have to be scrapped lol

[Shtopit]

That knight on the left is OP, that way he can fight hydras without looping their heads!

Also, notice how they both carry daggers, since short and long blades crosstrain.

About non-breathing and blowguns, that's an interesting point. I think there is a ranged reform underway to make needles into darts and have them directly thrown by hand though, so the problem is going to be addressed.

About flesh, it seems to me like the first time it actually matters for ghouls. I mainly use them for sprints so I may have a distorted view, but when it took that long it seemed to me that they were pretty much useless beside the "heal rot" part.

[Sar]

• Crawl

[Shard1697]

I think ghoul flesh healing is useful sometimes-when enemies are not in sight but you're hurt and want to heal up quickly in case some show up. ex, after delving a bit into one of the quadrants in V5 I found it useful, especially since you can quaff ambrosia(confusion does not prevent eating) and eat chunks for a lot of HP regain. But I hardly think it's overpowered. You don't want to do it in a fight if the fight is at all dangerous.

[gfgf45550]

Shard1697, I think I wrote about riposte not so clear. Thrustings are possible (not with every sword, to be mentioned), but riposte is an attack after parrying, I am very unsure, that somebody could attack immediately with a greatsword in a really close-combat.

Ripostes are more about rapiers or other one-handed blades.

[Utis]

Well, it's been several years since I had a look at the 15th century fighting manuals and even then my interest was only cursory at best. But IIRC the half-sword technique above is also a defensive technique. If you're arguing for "realism", then you should probably demand something like: "Riposte with 2-handers should work only if you are wearing gloves. Also, without gloves 2-handed swords should do less damage against foes wearing armour." Gameplay-wise that's just fiddly.

Seriously, every time somebody makes an argument based on "realism" in RPGs I'm wondering about their view on reality. (To be fair, two of your points are about gameplay, but you neglected to explain why they are supposed to be a problem.) I mean: Most of us aren't familiar with medieval sword fighting on a daily basis, so whatever. But nobody concerned about "realism" seems to be interested in the 500 lbs gorilla standing in the middle of the room. This is what would happen if RPGs and real life would switch "mechanics":

Spoiler: show

Doctor: We have an emergency! Get everything ready! Hurry!
Nurse: What is it?
Doctor: Severe wounds to the chest, trauma from blunt instruments and third degree burning. This guy got into a sword fight and was at the centre of an explosion. We need to act, now! Go! Go! Go!
Patient: You know, there's really no need to hurry. I wasn't poisoned or anything. Also, I can just walk by myself.
Doctor: Oh. Right. Well, Sir if you would follow me please then. Have a seat!
Patient: Thank you! You don't have any armed foes around here, do you? Right now even the slightest damage would kill me.
Doctor: No, don't worry. My god, that chest wound: your chest is completely open. I can see your internal organs from here and they're all damaged, you have hardly any blood left. You know, if this were a fantasy RPG, you would have died just from shock alone at the first trauma. What's your status? One HP? Two?
Patient: Twenty, actually.
Doctor: Still, at your level that's almost dead. Ah, here's the nurse with the universal remedy potion. Alright, you're good to go. I recommend at least ten minutes of rest, though.

[dracos369]

"Riposte with 2-handers should work only if you are wearing gloves. Also, without gloves 2-handed swords should do less damage against foes wearing armour."

IIRC, it was relatively safe to half-sword without gloves, though, cause swords were not that sharp.

[Shard1697]

Swords actually definitely were quite sharp, but if you grip tightly and do not let your hand slip the blade will not cut you. (You can see at least a couple ARMA/Hema guys doing this on youtube with razor sharp swords if you look).

Also on some swords and knives(but not all) there is a part called the ricasso near the crossguard which is unsharpened. Though of course most of the time on 'zweihander' type swords this is covered by a further grip, as mentioned.

Shard1697, I think I wrote about riposte not so clear. Thrustings are possible (not with every sword, to be mentioned), but riposte is an attack after parrying, I am very unsure, that somebody could attack immediately with a greatsword in a really close-combat.

I am positive that they could. Even the larger swords, so long as they are not the preposterously big ones made for ceremonial purposes and not actual combat, only weigh about 5-6 pounds(or less). It is absolutely possible to quickly retaliate with such a weapon.

[gfgf45550]

Shard1697, OK, I'll agree with you. Thanks for these large explanations above.

I've removed claiming about ripostes from OP-post.

[duvessa]

gargoyles arent even better than humans why do so many people say they're op

(ce dd dg dr ds fe ho mf mi og sp tr and trog/fedhas/kiku/makhleb/ru are clearly op and need to be nerfed though, yes)

[chequers]

OP, hopefully you can see now that arguments from "realism" or "lore" are silly. Why do you care that unbreathing species can use blowguns?

[tabstorm]

Here is a list of some curiosities in game mechanics. They are not bugs at all, but in spite of that they are illogical.

• Please forbid unbreathing species from using blowguns. It is weird, that nobody has fixed it yet.
• Inner flame blasts are counted as friendly fire. Why?
• In 0.19 species need 1,0 auts to eat. Ghouls too. So... Are you really sure, that they should be able to greatly restore their HP in battle without any problems?
• Why do you remove all OP-spells, abilities and combos but minotaurs, gargoyles and Trog are inviolable?

But none of the good spells below level 5, which are the only ones approaching OP in the game, have been removed.

[Airwolf]

Leave ghouls alone!!! Just because they don't need to breathe doesn't mean they can't breathe!

[Dioneo]

Don't (at least some) undead, gargoyles and such make noise/shout when you fight them as monsters? In fact, the player character can shout whenever they want to draw attention to themselves. That suggest that they are capable of somehow expelling air (which is required to speak) even if they don't need it to survive

They can also cast spells (which seems to require speech, as it is blocked by "silence") which is another indication that they indeed have some manner of functioning "lungs". You could of course suggest that they shouldn't be able to shout or cast spells either, but I think that would be taking it too far

[Airwolf]

That would be a pretty big lich nerf.

[gfgf45550]

Do you know, that blade hands prohibit using wands? So why does such a "realistic thing" exist in game? According to your logic in this thread it should be removed.

[Shtopit]

If a guy can manage to store his soul in a phylactery, I guess he can also find out a way to emit a voice. Negative energy vibrations and all that. In general, I don't think breathing or air is a requirement to speak in this game.

Crawl used to be more stringent in its real world mechanical coherence, with stuff like "cloak cursed? No taking off of some clothes that are beneath it." I don't remember if it was the cloak specifically, but rings had such a problem with cursed gloves. For the sake of playability this mechanic was removed, which IMHO leaves curses as a vestigial mechanic with very small impact except for single items created with that purpose. People without hands also weren't supposed to be able to use wands, so spider, ice form and felid I believe once couldn't use them. This has been left for blade hands, which are even better than a troll's claws and are something of a Transmuter's rage.

In general there are a lot of leftovers. I would be OK with non breathing not being able to use blowguns, since I like details to have meaning (the same way I would like size to matter more), but, as I already said, things are likely to change fast.

[ZipZipskins]

Do you know, that blade hands prohibit using wands? So why does such a "realistic thing" exist in game? According to your logic in this thread it should be removed.

The logic is that realism shouldn't supercede good game design, not that there is nothing that's somewhat realistic

[ydeve]

Just because you don't have to breath doesn't mean you can't inhale and exhale. I mean, nonbreathing species like gargoyles or gray draconians can recite under Zin.

[duvessa]

the blade hands thing should 100% be removed, too