Making Hunger more dangerous


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 19:33

Making Hunger more dangerous

Idea

When moving down to a new hunger scale in the "hungry" range, would it be feasible for a stomach growl to take place, giving away player position ala a scroll of noise, with a sound that is louder based on the hunger level (hunger, very hungry, near starving, starving).

Also it should growl randomly while near starving and even moreso while starving.

I think this would make hunger a little more dangerous.

Feedback? I did not check the wiki to see if something like this has already been proposed.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 19:39

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

XuaXua wrote:Idea

When moving down to a new hunger scale in the "hungry" range, would it be feasible for a stomach growl to take place, giving away player position ala a scroll of noise, with a sound that is louder based on the hunger level (hunger, very hungry, near starving, starving).

Also it should growl randomly while near starving and even moreso while starving.

I think this would make hunger a little more dangerous.

Feedback? I did not check the wiki to see if something like this has already been proposed.

It's an interesting and decent idea, but hunger is a tricky mechanic which i think they already somewhat plan on reworking. Still i do like the flavor of this, but I'm worried it'll just kick you when you're already down.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 19:48

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Eji1700 wrote:I'm worried it'll just kick you when you're already down.


That's a moot point since you're already playing Crawl.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 21:02

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

While we're at it, should we also hit players who run around Full or Engorged (I'm looking at you, amulet of the gourmand) with random belches?
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 21:38

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

I really hope this isn't serious.

Hunger is already an annoying mechanic that many players wish to get rid of altogether. It's a mechanic meant to deal with scumming and to balance some spells and wasn't made to ruin the stealth mechanic.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 22:03

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

snow wrote:I really hope this isn't serious.


I didn't post it in the Crazy Yuif forum.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 22:34

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Seriously?

You really want to make stealthy characters manually keep track of their hunger so they can eat some food just before they go down a level, or move to a previously-cleared area to avoid alerting monsters?

Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2011, 23:35

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

This would cause players to use artificial means of getting hungry (ring of hunger, spells, rods) in order to be able to eat chunks whenever they're available and avoid getting naturally hungry as much as possible. :geek:

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 00:09

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

This is just kind of a silly idea.

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 01:01

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

No. Bad idea.

However the food game in crawl does need to be tightened up. It loses it's lustre pretty quickly most games. Too much permafood. Hive should be removed / made smaller and those hive vaults should be removed / made smaller / more standardized.

edit: and fewer food shops. Food shops should be something I'm happy to find, not something that pisses me off.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 02:49

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Are you guys serious about tightening the food clock? Food is so boring. We need it for spells and to drive the player on, but we already got an ood timer to prevent scumming. If you wanna buff undead there's better ways.

Think whats the number one decision you make in crawl already? Its "eat this brown chunk or not?" you make this choice several hundred times a game. 99% of the time you eat it.

And you want to make food MORE important?
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 04:13

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

I do, yeah.

I think food is a really important mechanic in roguelikes that adds a lot of depth.

It forces you forward through the dungeon (because of Crawl's OOD spawns this is slightly less of a concern) by putting a clock on your actions. When the food game is tight, you have meaningful choices to make - do you stick around at an easier level to try to gain xp, do you fully explore a level to maximize xp, or do you dive in order to find food. Because crawl also integrates it into the spellcasting system, food is also an important resource that you need to manage throughout the game.

Or it would be, if the game didn't give it to you all the time with barely any cost associated to it. There is far too much permafood in the game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 04:36

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

It really wouldn't matter much if you got three rations that had to last you all the way to Zot. In the current system, there's rarely any reason in a 3-Rune game to be forced to use permafood at all, since you're bound to find some edible chunks before starving unless you're throwing around high-hunger abilities like magic. You could absolutely work around every challenge in a 3-Rune game without using rations, although nutrition management would probably become the main factor in your tactical and strategic choices.

The main problem is items like the amulet of gourmand and the staff of energy. Once you find one of these, the food clock is irrelevant until the post-endgame because you can utilize chunks so efficiently you never actually need anything else even if you make major misjudgments. Fiddling with ration spawns won't really do anything as long as the 800-pound gorilla that is gourmand is still sitting on the nutrition system, more than tripling the effective size of your food clock.

And in the end, I expect that fiddling with the spellcasting/intelligence hunger modifier to magic hunger is going to be more meaningful than knocking off a few ration spawns here and there. It isn't actually all that hard to get staple spells to hungerless levels, and normal passage of time is never going to overcome the availability of chunks.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 05:18

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

I see it like 7hm. Food is not boring and should be given more depth.
Vintermann's Food Reform proposal has good ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... c:eating&s
Xua Xua's 'stomach growl' idea is not bad. But I would not implement it for all species, only trolls maybe Ogres (those with big stomach). No loud crowl in the stomach of a halfling, felid, spiggian etc. Takes also away the stealth problem.
Would also like to see the option to vomit when food poisoned or sicked. With more hunger and fatigue if successful.

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 06:55

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

As i see it now : The Hive is the food stock that allow non undead / lichform characters to go through end game corspe lacking area (pandemonium and so)

I agree that currently it gives too much food for a 3 runes game, but it is fine for a 15 runes. Maybe the food bank should be at a deeper level (but it is not possible to move the branch as it would be too easy later ...)
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 07:37

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Mychaelh wrote:Vintermann's Food Reform proposal has good ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... isc:eating.

The proposal has been polished by dpeg and implemented by Ryak. It's planned for inclusion in 0.10.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 07:41

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Very good. Many thanks to vinterman, dpeg and Ryak.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 09:36

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Kill monster. move a few squares manually, hit c, hit ee. Oops a rat came into view, would you like to switch weapons? Hit y. Kill rat. Return to corpse. Hit c. Hit ee. Every few hundred turns. Whee.
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 09:51

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

i wasn't aware it was already implemented. carnivore as a mutation with degrees and getting nutrition from bad chunks alone make it very interesting, but i'm still not sure about the changes to what you can eat given your satiation level. we'll play-test i guess.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 12:07

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

absolutego wrote:i wasn't aware it was already implemented. carnivore as a mutation with degrees and getting nutrition from bad chunks alone make it very interesting, but i'm still not sure about the changes to what you can eat given your satiation level. we'll play-test i guess.

The implementation hasn't been closely reviewed yet, since we're busy with the 0.9 release. As I've commented on the wiki, it may bring back some problems with the berserk restriction. So maybe there will be some adjustments. Even as is, it's still a huge improvement over the current system IMHO.
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 12:37

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

well, that one's pretty obvious: a berserker with herbivore 1 would be rather screwed.
then there's the relationship with fast/slow metabolism. probably many things should be adjusted, with different effects for different races, which are working fine right now. all to tweak sickness. i just don't know if it's worth it, but the two points i mentioned certainly are.
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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 12:47

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

absolutego wrote:well, that one's pretty obvious: a berserker with herbivore 1 would be rather screwed.

Not screwed, the restriction has been changed to very hungry. Here is the comment I posted on the wiki:

There's a little problem with the new system and the berserk restriction. Previously, you couldn't berserk when hungry. When a Be was low on the satiated scale and found a chunk, it was better to rest until hungry to be able to eat the chunk rather than exploring and risking being ambushed when hungry. The problem was resolved by reducing the Berserk restriction to Very Hungry. In the new system, the problem will come back for Herbi 1, and normal diet in places where good chunks are rare (orc/elf). I don't think it's a huge problem, as it is quite restricted, but it would be better if we can address it. One possible fix would be to make the amount of nutrition provided by a chunk decay with time. That way, you gain nothing by waiting unless you also have slow digestion, but the gain is small and the case rare enough. It would also smoothen the rotting effect. Decaying is gradual instead of losing 2/3 nutrition value in a single turn. Would make sense if it also depends on the saprovore mutation. Like nutrition = 1000 - (3 - sapro_level) * k * age, for some value of k.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 16:40

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

minmay wrote:If the idea is to make food more relevant, get rid of chunks instead of permafood. What's the only species that can't eat chunks? Spriggans. What's the only species that actually cares about spell/ability hunger costs? Spriggans.

I think the idea is to increase the relevance of herbivore and carnivorous mutations at levels 1 and 2. And also to make the food minigame more interesting. It will be a first step to tightening the food clock by nerfing gourmand and a couple of other minor changes.
If we remove chunks, we might as well remove herbi/carni mutations. This would reduce variety, this change's goal is to increase it.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 18:34

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

That'd be ridiculous. I've never had a stomach growl or have heard one that would wake people up or alert them from more than 3 feet away...

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 18:38

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Crawl already has enough nutpunches, even with the hunger mechanic, to consider making it even less forgiving.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 19:17

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

OdiumTheologicum wrote:That'd be ridiculous. I've never had a stomach growl or have heard one that would wake people up or alert them from more than 3 feet away...


That's why I say, only do it for trolls and ogres.
What about 'vomiting'. I think ADOM had it. It's only fair if you go in a deep dark dungeon with lot of poisonous/toxic thingys that you have free ability over your own body functions. Should only cure poison when done right after eating poisoned food or potions. (not snake bites, poisoned darts etc.). Success random, always loss of satiation level (deadly when starving) + some turns (lots?) of fatigue + confusion. ( + maybe random att loss?).

Just brainstorming.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 20:30

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

OdiumTheologicum wrote:That'd be ridiculous. I've never had a stomach growl or have heard one that would wake people up or alert them from more than 3 feet away...


It wouldn't have to be shoutitis or lightening bolt loud. You could peg the frequency to the 'quiet growls' to how hungry a creature is an their size. (Err, not that I'm hugely partisan in the matter.)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2011, 21:35

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

OdiumTheologicum wrote:That'd be ridiculous. I've never had a stomach growl or have heard one that would wake people up or alert them from more than 3 feet away...


Which is why I suggested in the original post (albiet, overtly) that the sound scale.

Mychaelh wrote:What about 'vomiting'.


You can't have that without the pooping.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 29th July 2011, 08:44

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

jackalKnight wrote:Crawl already has enough nutpunches

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 29th July 2011, 09:37

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Also, if you're an ogre and you're starving the stomach growl will damage everything around you for 3d3 unresistible hunger damage.

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 6th August 2011, 15:41

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Don't forget that the proposal also says bad chunks give nutrition too. Now instead of getting absolutely nothing for poisoned/sickening/whatever chunks, your herbivorous berserker at least gets some food value out of it. In any case, it probably needs a few tweaks and some playtesting. I ran a few games with it and it seemed a lot more interesting and not particularly annoying, even when playing as a centaur.

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 6th August 2011, 19:16

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

The initial post is rather silly.

Not everyone has a stomach that is so audible it is a stealth hazard. At most, it is for people sitting next to you on the couch, maybe a few chairs away. if it was implemented it shouldn't apply to every hunger change, just when you eat too much too fast, or don't gobble down anything at low nutrition. Also it might vary from different species, a spriggan belch might have nothing on an ogre.

Also if I am randomly belching or having my stomach growl to give away my position, then I want it to apply to monsters as well.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Monday, 8th August 2011, 11:17

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

If you hear a troll getting hungry near you, you should be subjected to a chance of being afflicted by fear. Monsters should be liable to run away, if they hear that monstrous belly aching for filling.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 8th August 2011, 13:36

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

I think noise and clouds make more sense as a danger of sickness rather than hunger.

And if base metabolism were increased across the board, I think most players would end up sick from eating bad chunks more. I know my centaurs get sick more than other builds, and they use nearly all the permafood they find.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 8th August 2011, 20:07

Re: Making Hunger more dangerous

Stomach growling is perhaps out but what about flatulating?

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