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[luckless]

I won a (sort of) IJC game last week, with a DsGl, though I switched to Usk at the beginning of Vaults to try out the stealing mechanic. (In retrospect, I'd have liked to see how IJC plays in extended.) A few notes:

stealing
My main thought is that the punishment for stealing is WAY too lax. This should be among the most stupidly dangerous things you can do in Crawl. Think of going into a zig before you can really handle it: you're likely to get stuff that wins you the game, but you're also likely to get into a situation that's either unsurvivable or barely so. Stealing one of the divine weapons promises a similar reward; it should come with similar risks. Consider threats on the magnitude of berserk daevas, unavoidable red contamination, torment and/or nasty debuffs in high tension combat, etc. Players are bringing this upon themselves; there is no reason it should feel anything close to fair.

That said, I love both the divine weapons and the ability to steal them. I'd hate to see either go, or for the divine weapons themselves to be nerfed into something less special. However, stealing them should not be a generally good strategy, as it is now. Rather, it should function strategically as a kind of hail-mary pass to salvage a badly under-equipped character (again, like risking a zig early) or more realistically be something you try when you're more interested in fun than winning.

recall weapon
Consider eliminating Recall Weapon's (already meaningless) hunger cost. As SN (helpfully!) explained to me on CBRO, spamming Recall Weapon is critical to the god's playstyle and eliminating the hunger cost would help emphasize that the ability should really be used all the time.

More broadly, I'd also advise reevaluating about Recall Weapon's time and MP costs. 1 MP isn't quite meaningless, since you're using the ability so many times over the course of a fight, but it comes close. It may be a good idea to increase the cost to something more substantial (around 3 to 5 MP, maybe) but make it instant instead of nearly so. 0.1 auts never matters, except in the rare and unpredictable cases when it does, while reducing the time to 0 would again reinforce how the ability is mean to be used.

high piety/pressure points
I think IJC has two problems at high levels: (a) there are not enough ways to spend piety; (b) Pressure Points is not as impactful as it should be, since it's too unreliable to matter much in serious fights. While one person I talked to bemoaned the loss of Steel Butterfly Technique with respect to the first problem, I disagree (and agree with all of SN's reasons for cutting it). As a solution to both problems, however, I suggest adding an activated ability that temporarily increases the player's chance to hit pressure points, with a duration and/or magnitude that scales with Invocations.

This ability could come online at 5 or 6*, replacing Afterimage in the former case. If an increased chance to paralyze is too strong, the ability could only apply to slowness.

overall
In my first post on the thread I said that IJC feels to me like a more advanced Okawaru. To expand on that a bit more: like Oka, IJC is a combat god that functions by enhancing the player's existing weapon skills and improving the player's equipment, both directly via the summoned weapons and indirectly via the crosstraining. (Being able to immediately used the strongest weapon you've come across, regardless of category, is a major advantage in early-to-mid game and is indeed key to the god's effectiveness--in what is to my mind a really elegant way--before its main abilities come online at 3/4*.) The main difference is that the IJC requires a much more tactical and involved playstyle, underscored by the fact that Project Weapon is probably less effective as a panic button than Heroism + Finesse. On the whole I think the god's power level is about on par with Usk or Hep.

Finally, I'd like to stress that I had a great time with the god and would encourage anyone who hasn't tried it yet to do so.

[Shard1697]

I think my experience with the wrath was much different than yours, in that I got repeatedly stat drained until I lost both Str and Dex.

However, it is probably true that the danger of the rest of the wrath is too lax-I stole as early as I could yet didn't have too much trouble with the dancing weapons most of the time. If I had been more patient and waited until I was stronger to steal, they wouldn't have been much threat.

[Steel Neuron]

Thank you Luckless for the fantastic review! I'll go point by point.

stealing
My main thought is that the punishment for stealing is WAY too lax. This should be among the most stupidly dangerous things you can do in Crawl. Think of going into a zig before you can really handle it: you're likely to get stuff that wins you the game, but you're also likely to get into a situation that's either unsurvivable or barely so. Stealing one of the divine weapons promises a similar reward; it should come with similar risks. Consider threats on the magnitude of berserk daevas, unavoidable red contamination, torment and/or nasty debuffs in high tension combat, etc. Players are bringing this upon themselves; there is no reason it should feel anything close to fair.

That's a very interesting perspective. Stealing is by far the least explored aspect of the god. I've been reworking the wrath today, although I might need to make it stronger if this opinion is shared by other testers, specially now that I've increased the enchant level of divine weapons.

That said, I love both the divine weapons and the ability to steal them. I'd hate to see either go, or for the divine weapons themselves to be nerfed into something less special. However, stealing them should not be a generally good strategy, as it is now. Rather, it should function strategically as a kind of hail-mary pass to salvage a badly under-equipped character (again, like risking a zig early) or more realistically be something you try when you're more interested in fun than winning.

The reason why I came up with momentum+ is to have a mechanic that would naturally work much better by staying with the god, with the obvious drawback of having to forfeit the weapon after a while, so in some way divine weapons are always a tainted gift when stolen. That said, I agree that the punishment must be strong enough for players to really doubt whether they should steal at all. I'll look into it.

recall weapon
Consider eliminating Recall Weapon's (already meaningless) hunger cost. As SN (helpfully!) explained to me on CBRO, spamming Recall Weapon is critical to the god's playstyle and eliminating the hunger cost would help emphasize that the ability should really be used all the time.

More broadly, I'd also advise reevaluating about Recall Weapon's time and MP costs. 1 MP isn't quite meaningless, since you're using the ability so many times over the course of a fight, but it comes close. It may be a good idea to increase the cost to something more substantial (around 3 to 5 MP, maybe) but make it instant instead of nearly so. 0.1 auts never matters, except in the rare and unpredictable cases when it does, while reducing the time to 0 would again reinforce how the ability is mean to be used.

You read my mind! One of the changes going into the next change is removing Recall's hunger cost. At the moment I'm using 1 AUT which is the shortest I can do. In any case, you're right in that we need to convey the message that Recall is meant to be spammed, and a hunger cost muddles that message.

high piety/pressure points
I think IJC has two problems at high levels: (a) there are not enough ways to spend piety; (b) Pressure Points is not as impactful as it should be, since it's too unreliable to matter much in serious fights. While one person I talked to bemoaned the loss of Steel Butterfly Technique with respect to the first problem, I disagree (and agree with all of SN's reasons for cutting it). As a solution to both problems, however, I suggest adding an activated ability that temporarily increases the player's chance to hit pressure points, with a duration and/or magnitude that scales with Invocations.

This ability could come online at 5 or 6*, replacing Afterimage in the former case. If an increased chance to paralyze is too strong, the ability could only apply to slowness.

I'm not sure I agree that there aren't enough ways to spend piety. One thing that I haven't seen anyone do yet is project multiple weapons at once, which is easy to do thanks to Recall Weapon. When I'm overwhelmed, throwing three weapons in a row is usually enough to take down anything. That would mean spending 12 piety with the current costs, which is around what you would expect for a more powerful panic button.

If the piety balance is off, I'd prefer to fix it through a faster decay than by adding another ability, because the god is already quite busy and I'd say feature-complete at this point. Having another active would probably turn out to be too overwhelming (and I say this partly because Steel Dragonfly Technique didn't get used for this very reason).

overall
In my first post on the thread I said that IJC feels to me like a more advanced Okawaru. To expand on that a bit more: like Oka, IJC is a combat god that functions by enhancing the player's existing weapon skills and improving the player's equipment, both directly via the summoned weapons and indirectly via the crosstraining. (Being able to immediately used the strongest weapon you've come across, regardless of category, is a major advantage in early-to-mid game and is indeed key to the god's effectiveness--in what is to my mind a really elegant way--before its main abilities come online at 3/4*.) The main difference is that the IJC requires a much more tactical and involved playstyle, underscored by the fact that Project Weapon is probably less effective as a panic button than Heroism + Finesse. On the whole I think the god's power level is about on par with Usk or Hep.

Finally, I'd like to stress that I had a great time with the god and would encourage that anyone who hasn't tried it yet to do so.

Thank you for the kind words and the great summary! You hit the nail on the head about the active parts of the god being less effective than Oka's, I wanted the true power of IJC to only be unlocked if you truly commit to the mobile playstyle.

By the way, there is one more change in the next iteration: Now the EV bonus from Afterimage will be higher for characters that had a higher starting EV. This is to enforce a Dodging build rather than AC, mainly for theme reasons.

[Steel Neuron]

0.1 auts never matters, except in the rare and unpredictable cases when it does, while reducing the time to 0 would again reinforce how the ability is mean to be used.

Hmm, I think I didn't understand your point when you first made it. So you're suggesting to make the skill actually instant?

I think this would be a better design decision, I agree. But since I'm fairly new to the codebase, I was unsure if making an ability fully instant would cause issues with other game mechanics. Is this a safe thing to do? If so, I'll give it a try.

[luckless]

Hmm, I think I didn't understand your point when you first made it. So you're suggesting to make the skill actually instant?

I think this would be a better design decision, I agree. But since I'm fairly new to the codebase, I was unsure if making an ability fully instant would cause issues with other game mechanics. Is this a safe thing to do? If so, I'll give it a try.

Yeah, that's the idea. No idea about the code base, though. (Maybe looking at the code for Delayed Fireball might help?) But, again, consider upping the MP cost, at least as an experiment.

As to the earlier stuff:

That's a very interesting perspective. Stealing is by far the least explored aspect of the god. I've been reworking the wrath today, although I might need to make it stronger if this opinion is shared by other testers, specially now that I've increased the enchant level of divine weapons.

Yeah, maybe see what happens. How often should stealing be a good idea? Should it be something you do as a matter of course, like abandoning Trog/Oka once you've gotten all the gifts you want? Should it be something you should almost never do? Somewhere in between?

It's worth remembering that players can be pretty resourceful, though: even if the punishment for stealing seems excessive, it wouldn't surprise me if clever people found ways to get around it more reliably than one would've thought.

The reason why I came up with momentum+ is to have a mechanic that would naturally work much better by staying with the god, with the obvious drawback of having to forfeit the weapon after a while, so in some way divine weapons are always a tainted gift when stolen.

So I gathered. fwiw I think momenutm+ works well both before and after you leave: when you stay of course it's like +50% damage on all attacks, but after you leave you can still get it most of the time by kiting, for instance. (Hilariously, and fittingly, it also works after Uskayaw's Line Pass.)

If the piety balance is off, I'd prefer to fix it through a faster decay than by adding another ability, because the god is already quite busy and I'd say feature-complete at this point. Having another active would probably turn out to be too overwhelming (and I say this partly because Steel Dragonfly Technique didn't get used for this very reason).

Makes sense; I'm convinced.

[luckless]

I think my experience with the wrath was much different than yours, in that I got repeatedly stat drained until I lost both Str and Dex.

yeah, I WAS down to 1 dex at one point, which was a little tense.

Again, I can't help but think the thing to shoot for is the reaction I have (but maybe only because I'm a mediocre player) when I try a ziggurat early: "I can PROBABLY survive this, but only if I blow through an irresponsibly large amount of scrolls of blinking/potions of heal wounds/etc and even then it's not a given." The divine sword and axe are probably the two best weapons in the game and the others are not far behind; it's perfectly reasonable for getting them to require a lot of luck and valuable nonrenewable resources.

[Steel Neuron]

New changes today! You'll particularly like them luckless, since they have a lot to do with your feedback

I increased Recall's MP cost to 2 and made it instant, as you suggested. Other than that, I added a new late game piety sink... I'll keep it a surprise, but you will notice it very quickly when the opportunity arises!

EDIT: Also, wrath is a whole different beast now... You will see.

[Lacuenta]

All things considered this is my experience:

I've played a bunch of games with this god and I've got to say, its almost worse then worshipping no god at all.

A lot of micro management is involved, and the benefits of doing so seem to be not worth your time.

Problems I've noticed:

No tabbing:
You have to consider every step you make, for instance to get value, you have to walk into that broad axe floating around, to lunge at your opponents even though it's probably the worst positioning play ever. The rewards of stepping into the middle of that death yak squad are that you probably get killed.

The god seems to be focussed on FO, play anything with a shield and even Oki seems like the best god ever, at the same time you need the extra defense to actually sustain the bad positioning and no divine weapons for you my friend.

Everytime I make a "good" move to position myself so I don't get killed, a floating weapon is in the way, making me switch to the +4 dagger of slashing while I was holding the + 6 War axe of electrocution or some such, or worse my temporary weapon dissapears in the middle of a fight while searching for better ground. And I suddenly find myself unarmed vs a komodo dragon and his 2 spiny frog friends.

So:

Don't punish non-FO shield users, you kinda need a shield if you want to use this god if you wanna survivie.

Make weapons dissapear less quickly from your grasp, one needs to find good ground to utilise the martial techniques, kinda sucks when you take 5 steps and that +6 quarterstaff of crushing you wanted to pole vault with is suddenly gone and you look like a dumb ass walking into a wall unarmed in the middle of an orc school.

edit: and yeah I understand it's like free controlled blinks and stuff, but really that's just boring and not really what this god is about I hope.

Anyway, how about that halo does it work the same way as Tso's one?

[Steel Neuron]

I've played a bunch of games with this god and I've got to say, its almost worse then worshipping no god at all.

That's an interesting statement! So far everyone I've talked to (and myself included) consider the god to be on the OP side, but I guess that if we're approaching the point of balance, there have to be opinions on both sides

No tabbing:
You have to consider every step you make, for instance to get value, you have to walk into that broad axe floating around, to lunge at your opponents even though it's probably the worst positioning play ever. The rewards of stepping into the middle of that death yak squad are that you probably get killed.

There's no need for your moves to be bad positioning moves. Whirlwind can be a great tool to fight against large groups while only ever being in contact with one or two monsters. Lunge can take care of fights in corridors, and pole vault can help you kite very effectively. I think it's a false equivalency to say that exploting the god's power means you need to put yourself in bad situations, but it does have a learning curve . In any case, when I reach the altar playing Mo, I instantly get a huge survivability boost (to the point of making me dangerously OP in the early game) because I've taught myself how to traffic control with the weapon spawns.

The god seems to be focussed on FO, play anything with a shield and even Oki seems like the best god ever, at the same time you need the extra defense to actually sustain the bad positioning and no divine weapons for you my friend.

You still get divine weapons if you wear a shield, they'll just be of the one handed variety... Of which there aren't that many right now, I'm afraid. That's the last thing I'll do before stopping work on the god, adding a small set of divine weapons that work for shielded - small characters, which means I will get rid of the pseudo conduct against shields.

Everytime I make a "good" move to position myself so I don't get killed, a floating weapon is in the way, making me switch to the +4 dagger of slashing while I was holding the + 6 War axe of electrocution or some such, or worse my temporary weapon dissapears in the middle of a fight while searching for better ground. And I suddenly find myself unarmed vs a komodo dragon and his 2 spiny frog friends.

I think we talked about this in your game, but that's what Recall Weapon is for (which is worth 2 MP and is completely instant). Just use it liberally to correct these mistakes, and if you want to justify the MP cost to yourself, keep in mind you just gained a huge EV and MR boost for swapping .

If you really really need to guarantee a non-swap, you can always inscribe your weapon with !w (and make a macro to that effect if you like) but when your weapon is so powerful that it renders everything from IJC obsolete, you probably should be pumping up invo!

Don't punish non-FO shield users, you kinda need a shield if you want to use this god if you wanna survivie.

Yep, that's coming. Next and probably last big change, shield/small race playstyles will be fully supported and not second class citizens. Thanks!

Make weapons dissapear less quickly from your grasp, one needs to find good ground to utilise the martial techniques, kinda sucks when you take 5 steps and that +6 quarterstaff of crushing you wanted to pole vault with is suddenly gone and you look like a dumb ass walking into a wall unarmed in the middle of an orc school.

I'll look into that too. The quick despawn time was more important back when weapons attacked all the time, but I agree it can be increased a bit.

Anyway, how about that halo does it work the same way as Tso's one?

It has the same backlight effects, yes. I considered making it only aesthetical, but it's kind of like fog in that it represents an actual physical effect on the world.

[Steel Neuron]

Lo and behold, the last patch for IJC is in... At this point, only bugfixes remain.

Two major, major changes.

First: IJC will now always match your weapon's enchant level when spawning its own weapons. If you are lucky enough to get a +12 weapon in the early game, everything IJC spawns will be +12 (and appear with an "overenchanted" inscription and a description to that effect, to show that the enchant level won't remain like that if you steal the weapon). This solves the annoying and counterintuitive issue of the god becoming much less attractive once you find a good weapon. Now, you get to watch that power increase spread through your entire playstyle, and have less cognitive load because you almost never have to avoid swaps. Brands and weapon bases are still tied to XL and Invo, so you won't see triple swords and quick blades unless you put effort in it. Note that IJC can still generate weapons with a higher enchant level than what you have (including if you're unarmed). Your current main weapon just establishes a minimum.

Second: IJC now doesn't mind shields. A few things have changed to accomodate this new model; chiefly the weapon spawning algorithm, which now uses a different set of weight for characters wielding a shield. Similarly, two new divine weapons (Divine Hook Blade and Divine Chui) have been introduced to give shielded characters and small species more options.

Bonus, get a preview of the tiles!


Third: Since weapons don't attack on their own anymore, their spawn timers have been lengthened so you can take more free movements in combat without risking weapons going away. This should make tactical combat more engaging and less about micromanagement.

[Sphara]

Most definitely needs a shot in trunk. Surely it will be too complex and non-tabby for some players but for me this worked.

I have certainly not discovered all the exploits you can do with this god but when it comes to balance issues, I feel free to say there are several more powerful gods around. For the early game and for the late game.

+1 for trunk

[Factorialite]

This god is super fun, but I will say that I miss a premier capstone ability. That said, it's just a personal preference.

[PlatinumSpider]

I'm playing a game with a DrMo right now and twice so far I've had monsters act after I use Recall Weapon. It is supposed to be instant now so I figure there's a bug in there somewhere.

[bel]

0.1 auts never matters, except in the rare and unpredictable cases when it does, while reducing the time to 0 would again reinforce how the ability is mean to be used.

Hmm, I think I didn't understand your point when you first made it. So you're suggesting to make the skill actually instant?

I think this would be a better design decision, I agree. But since I'm fairly new to the codebase, I was unsure if making an ability fully instant would cause issues with other game mechanics. Is this a safe thing to do? If so, I'll give it a try.

I have little experience with coding, but there are several abilities which are instant, for instance: Sif Muna's Divine Energy and Chei's temporal distortion. From a quick skim of the code, there is a flag called abflag::INSTANT, which you might want to look into. Shouldn't be too hard.

[Steel Neuron]

0.1 auts never matters, except in the rare and unpredictable cases when it does, while reducing the time to 0 would again reinforce how the ability is mean to be used.

Hmm, I think I didn't understand your point when you first made it. So you're suggesting to make the skill actually instant?

I think this would be a better design decision, I agree. But since I'm fairly new to the codebase, I was unsure if making an ability fully instant would cause issues with other game mechanics. Is this a safe thing to do? If so, I'll give it a try.

I have little experience with coding, but there are several abilities which are instant, for instance: Sif Muna's Divine Energy and Chei's temporal distortion. From a quick skim of the code, there is a flag called abflag::INSTANT, which you might want to look into. Shouldn't be too hard.

Duh, can't believe I didn't realize that flag existed. I was missing the forest for the trees. Thanks!

That's fixed on the newest version. A few other things have changed, with the intention of simplifying the god:

• Stealing is gone.
• Tiered wrath is gone.
• Conducts are gone (IJC won't mind or even mention shields, ranged weapons are cool too, but of course they won't manifest flying weapons).
• Prompts from divine weapons to stay for piety are gone. Instead, Project Weapon has taken a main piety sink role with an increased cost and a slightly more powerful effect.
• Messages have been streamlined accross the board.

[Vajrapani]

Is there an ETA on when this god comes into trunk?

[Steel Neuron]

Is there an ETA on when this god comes into trunk?

When, and whether or not that happens is up to the dev team

I've been having some conversations with them over IRC lately. A substantial part of the dev team raised concerns about the complexity of the god, and while I initially disagreed, I do now see their point, and their criticism is valid. Since then, I've been working exclusively to simplify the god and cut any mechanics that aren't absolutely essential to the design. Hence the chances above and a few more that should have hit the experimental branch a few hours ago.

I'm confident that with this new batch of removals (and a few UI and quality of life tweaks) the god is in a sufficiently polished state, but again that is up to the dev team to decide. Some devs have been more enthusiastic about the proposal while others have strong reservations, but that is of course to be expected! For now I'm hoping for more of them to try the branch for a game or at least until full piety, because I'm certain the god feels better in game that on paper

Meanwhile, I'm also working on the back end to make sure the incorporation is smooth if it gets merged. I'm not in a rush, so I'll listen to feedback from the devs and make any changes that are necessary for the god to fall in line with DCSS philosophy, while trying to keep the spirit of the design. Hopefully that will end well!

[VeryAngryFelid]

So was the CBRO updated with the latest changes?
1) I had "No ability" in my abilities menu.
2) I checked all weapons description and it is not clear to me if different categories still do different things like confusion and slow.
3) Was the ability to throw multiple weapons at once removed?
4) I was unable to swap weapon after throwing a weapon, I get something like "You are too concentrated to keep your weapon in the air". Does it mean it is useless ability unless I wait for some weapons from council to appear?
5) Sometimes I get messages about afterimage disappearing while still keeping MR and EV, is it expected?
6) The god is quite bad for Ogre, it was very rare to see weapons even comparable to my +4 GSC so I got bored and died without much feelings.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 020353.txt
Maybe it would be more fun for stabbers, I don't know, so it's my own fault I guess.

[Steel Neuron]

So was the CBRO updated with the latest changes?
1) I had "No ability" in my abilities menu.

That's a bug, it seems I didn't thoroughly remove the "Steal and Renounce" ability. Thanks for the heads up! EDIT: Fixed, will be up tomorrow.

2) I checked all weapons description and it is not clear to me if different categories still do different things like confusion and slow.

Nope, they don't; that's something we quickly discarded in our early discussions. The pressure points mechanic is independent of weapon category.

3) Was the ability to throw multiple weapons at once removed?

Steel Dragonfly Technique was indeed removed; it didn't have synergy with the rest of the kit and, while spectacular on paper, just amounted to a worse balanced Grand Finale.

4) I was unable to swap weapon after throwing a weapon, I get something like "You are too concentrated to keep your weapon in the air". Does it mean it is useless ability unless I wait for some weapons from council to appear?

You're mixing up two things here I think. You're unable to equip weapons from your inventory when your own weapon is floating around. This is to prevent a whole bunch of exploits that could come from allowing the player to have multiple of their own weapons out. However, when your own weapon is projected, you're still able to walk-swap with other council weapons no problem.

I don't really understand your question though, why would it be useless? If you project your own weapon, it becomes a very powerful summon that will take care of strong enemies for you, and meanwhile you're able to run away or punch enemies (you always crosstrain UC) and as soon as you punch anything, it will summon a weapon that you can grab and continue using. I often start difficult fights by projecting my own weapon, specially against hydras early on, because I'd rather be punching them.

5) Sometimes I get messages about afterimage disappearing while still keeping MR and EV, is it expected?

That doesn't sound right, I'll take a look! Webtiles uses a very different set of code to update the stat view, so it might be related to that.

6) The god is quite bad for Ogre, it was very rare to see weapons even comparable to my +4 GSC so I got bored and died without much feelings.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 020353.txt
Maybe it would be more fun for stabbers, I don't know, so it's my own fault I guess.

Ogre and Troll are a bit of an edge case in that there is a specific weapon category that they have a very strong incentive to stick to, so yes, I agree IJC may not be the best choice for them. Check it out on a stabber, or a more balanced character that can use different weapon categories, and I'm sure it will work out better

[dracos369]

So, I've been playing this god for a while now, and I like it a lot. A few things of notice:

Why does meteor hammer do piercing damage? Isn't it supposed to be entirely blunt?

I really appreciate UC crosstraining with weapon skills, not only for the possibility to punch things while I project my only weapon, but also cause offhand punches help when my best found weapons are one-handed, but I still want two-handers to spawn.

Currently, staves are probably the most underwhelming weapon category, and, although pole vault can be great situationally, it synegises better with polearms.

Oh, and what exactly determines how often pressure points is triggered? Cause, I noticed, by the time things "suddenly stop moving", they are usually dead anyway(and I use martial techniques a lot).

[Steel Neuron]

So, I've been playing this god for a while now, and I like it a lot. A few things of notice:

Glad to hear you're enjoying it! I've spectated a couple of your games and you were using the martial abilities really well

Why does meteor hammer do piercing damage? Isn't it supposed to be entirely blunt?

I think that behaviour is inherited from its base item, a dire flail. I'll look into it and see if I can force it to be only blunt, but it might be tied to the base.

I really appreciate UC crosstraining with weapon skills, not only for the possibility to punch things while I project my only weapon, but also cause offhand punches help when my best found weapons are one-handed, but I still want two-handers to spawn.

Not sure what you mean there exactly, you will still get two hander spawns even if you're wielding a 1h weapon, the only requisite is that you aren't wielding a shield.

Currently, staves are probably the most underwhelming weapon category, and, although pole vault can be great situationally, it synegises better with polearms.

That's absolutely true and that's why I've chosen the top tier brands the way I have, when you have enough XL/invo, staves will start to always be Speed branded and polearms Elec branded. The staff brand is better (and more appropriate) which should compensate the extra synergy in polearms. Same thing for the divine weapons.

Oh, and what exactly determines how often pressure points is triggered? Cause, I noticed, by the time things "suddenly stop moving", they are usually dead anyway(and I use martial techniques a lot).

It's a roll involving your weapon skill and the target monster's HD.

[dracos369]

I really appreciate UC crosstraining with weapon skills, not only for the possibility to punch things while I project my only weapon, but also cause offhand punches help when my best found weapons are one-handed, but I still want two-handers to spawn.

Not sure what you mean there exactly, you will still get two hander spawns even if you're wielding a 1h weapon, the only requisite is that you aren't wielding a shield.

  Code:

You miss foo. You punch foo. Foo is killed.

...that's when sacrificing using higher base damage weapon seems worth it.

[luckless]

It's a roll involving your weapon skill and the target monster's HD.

Ever considered using invocations instead of weapon skill (and maybe raising the odds at high skill levels)? Seems thematic (deeper spiritual insight into the IJC -> mystic martial arts knowledge -> Pai Mei) and it'd give Invo more to do.

Super bummed about stealing, btw, but there it is. (Would it be too much trouble to make a downloadable version available that leaves stealing in???)

  Code:

You miss foo. You punch foo. Foo is killed.

...that's when sacrificing using higher base damage weapon seems worth it.

Yeah, and it may be that, say, a double sword with an offhand punch generally outdamages a greatsword.

[dracos369]

Why does meteor hammer do piercing damage? Isn't it supposed to be entirely blunt?

I think that behaviour is inherited from its base item, a dire flail. I'll look into it and see if I can force it to be only blunt, but it might be tied to the base.

I just had a wild idea! Maybe try looking at the code for Gyre&Gimble and make it a double flail! But changing base to great mace should do the trick.

Ever considered using invocations instead of weapon skill (and maybe raising the odds at high skill levels)? Seems thematic (deeper spiritual insight into the IJC -> mystic martial arts knowledge -> Pai Mei) and it'd give Invo more to do.

Yeah, and it solves the problem of things dying before they have time to get paralyzed(provided you train enough Invo, that is).

[Steel Neuron]

It's a roll involving your weapon skill and the target monster's HD.

Ever considered using invocations instead of weapon skill (and maybe raising the odds at high skill levels)? Seems thematic (deeper spiritual insight into the IJC -> mystic martial arts knowledge -> Pai Mei) and it'd give Invo more to do.

I considered it, but using your weapon skill seems more thematic to me; you're doing something purely physical that the Council has taught you, not something you're being given divine help for. It also serves to make a clear distinction for your character build: Everything involving weapons and their quality is invo, everything involving martial attacks is weapon skill based. This gives you a choice on what to focus.

Yeah, and it solves the problem of things dying before they have time to get paralyzed(provided you train enough Invo, that is).

I'm not sure that would solve it, or that there is a problem to begin with. Things dying just during the paralysis strike is entirely down to chance and would be under the new model, no matter what stat you use, high HD monsters will have a much easier time resisting slow and paralysis than low HD ones. I honestly think the pressure point chances are at the right spot now, you see slow very frequency, and para as a rarer occurence, which was my intention

[ZipZipskins]

I'm in the middle of my first playthrough with the Council right now and boy does it feel good. The mobility in combat and the versatility are a blast. I'll have to play a bit more for more substantive feedback, but for now, good work. It's a lot of fun

edit: died shortly after you stopped spectating due to work distraction + minor lag but I'm gonna fire it up again asap

Edit 2: Just as a flavor note, maybe quarterstaffs shouldn't shatter into steel fragments?

[coledot]

Enjoying this god so far, great work, would love to see it in the main game.

Unfortunately, it "ate" my main weapon (a +0 long sword). It disappeared entirely and I don't see any spot where it might have dropped. Is this a known bug?

edit: Never mind, a closer look at the message log shows:

Your +0 long sword is sucked into a shaft!
The shaft crumbles and collapses.

Hah, didn't know that could happen. At least I can get it back at some point. Also might be good for the devs to know about in case this is unintended.

[Steel Neuron]

I'm in the middle of my first playthrough with the Council right now and boy does it feel good. The mobility in combat and the versatility are a blast. I'll have to play a bit more for more substantive feedback, but for now, good work. It's a lot of fun

edit: died shortly after you stopped spectating due to work distraction + minor lag but I'm gonna fire it up again asap

Edit 2: Just as a flavor note, maybe quarterstaffs shouldn't shatter into steel fragments?

Glad to see you're enjoying it! Yeah, I should be more mindful of the weapon material, but I find it a difficult think to future-proof if more weapons are added . I had to remove all direct references to "Blade" for a similar reason... They can't say "Wield my blade" and give you a blunt object!

Enjoying this god so far, great work, would love to see it in the main game.

Unfortunately, it "ate" my main weapon (a +0 long sword). It disappeared entirely and I don't see any spot where it might have dropped. Is this a known bug?

edit: Never mind, a closer look at the message log shows:

Your +0 long sword is sucked into a shaft!
The shaft crumbles and collapses.

Hah, didn't know that could happen. At least I can get it back at some point. Also might be good for the devs to know about in case this is unintended.

Heh, amusing one. I hadn't thought of shafts, I suppose I should leave the interaction in? Excepting it out will be inconsistent with other game mechanics for no gain, and I think it's fun.

[coledot]

Heh, amusing one. I hadn't thought of shafts, I suppose I should leave the interaction in? Excepting it out will be inconsistent with other game mechanics for no gain, and I think it's fun.

On thinking about it, yeah, leave it in. The player can get the weapon back eventually anyways, and it's not a big loss considering IJC's crosstraining lets you use literally any other weapon in the meantime. Make the player think on their feet.

Also, it's Fun (in the DF sense) to temporarily lose your weapons like this. Crawl giveth, Crawl taketh away.

[PowerOfKaishin]

What are the stats and abilities of the divine weapons?

Half of me wants to petition for stealing back so I can muck around in Zigs with OP endgame weapons. <_<>_>

[ZipZipskins]

Glad to see you're enjoying it! Yeah, I should be more mindful of the weapon material, but I find it a difficult think to future-proof if more weapons are added .

Maybe just make it "fragments" instead of "steel fragments"?

[coledot]

A minor request: for floating weapons, can we have a way of differentiating between permanent and IJC-summoned? Something like (for example) using the x command and viewing the description: "a +6 battleaxe of chopping (friendly, permanent)" versus "a +6 battleaxe of chopping (friendly, summoned)".

I ask because I've run into a situation where two of my floating weapons were otherwise identical & I could only guess as to which one was the permanent one. This could be a problem if I need to switch to a third weapon in my inventory & can't get the permaweapon back into my hands on the first try. I know Recall Weapon is instant but it still eats up 2 MP. I admit this is a pretty minor corner case, but it could hurt if the player happens to be in a pinch.

[coledot]

I lost my +6 battleaxe of chopping in the Abyss. Not sure how it happened. I entered a wizlab, got banished by a deep elf demonologist, found the abyss exit, but when I re-entered the wizlab... I was empty-handed. I looked at the message log but didn't see anything that explains where the battleaxe went. Maybe a bug, any idea what happened?

EDIT so I don't triple post: Snagged a win!

Spoiler: show

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20-a0-548-gad3071d (webtiles) character file.

1712497 coledot the Invulnerable (level 27, 273/273 HPs)
             Began as a Minotaur Fighter on Dec 31, 2016.
             Was the Champion of Ieoh Jian.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Jan 3, 2017!
             
             The game lasted 10:59:03 (77430 turns).

coledot the Invulnerable (Minotaur Fighter)        Turns: 77430, Time: 10:59:04

Health: 273/273    AC: 40    Str: 28    XL:     27
Magic:  27/27      EV: 22    Int:  5    God:    Ieoh Jian [******]
Gold:   7741       SH:  0    Dex: 21    Spells: 19/26 levels left

rFire  + + +      SeeInvis +    a - +4 executioner's axe (flame)
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    p - +5 gold dragon scales
rNeg   + + .      Faith    .    (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    Q - +0 mask of the Dragon {MR+ Slay+3 SInv}
rElec  .          Reflect  .    J - +0 cloak "Yblurr" {rN++ rCorr Str-3 Dex+3}
rCorr  +          Harm     .    W - +0 pair of gloves of Analysis {Dex+3}
MR     +++..      Rnd*Rage +    y - +2 pair of boots {run}
Stlth  ..........               g - amulet of regeneration
                                R - ring of fire
                                j - ring "Omyrch" {+Blink rF+}

@: quick
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, berserk 1, blurry vision 3, low mp 2, poison
resistance, strong 1
0: Orb of Zot
}: 3/15 runes: decaying, silver, gossamer
a: Recall Weapon, Project Weapon, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink


A few feedback notes:

Axes synergizes beautifully with martial maneuvers. Lunging is great on its own, but simultaneous lunge & cleave seems almost OP (almost). I did notice that a lunge-cleave applies the pressure points debuff to all targets, not just the primary target. I wonder if this is intentional, and maybe it ought to be nerfed?
Pole vaulting was a useful skill to have, but it seemed to be extremely situational. Even when keeping close to walls, there were only a few times where pole vaulting seemed the "correct" action to take; above, say, recalling another weapon and attacking with that. 3-tile wide halls worked best for continuous pogo-attacks [as I like to call it ].
There were a handful of times where my main weapon had failed to follow me across floors. I'm not entirely sure what could cause this, and most of the time (save the Abyss situation I described above) I would go back to where I was & find my weapon on the floor. It's not such a big deal though because of the crosstraining bonuses.

Again, great work with the design/coding, and am looking forward to seeing it added to the main game.

[Steel Neuron]

What are the stats and abilities of the divine weapons?

Half of me wants to petition for stealing back so I can muck around in Zigs with OP endgame weapons. <_<>_>

They are +11 to +16 weapons with good bases, with specific brands (Speed, flaming or elec depending on type) and the "momentum+" intrinsic, which makes them deal extra damage for the first attack made after having moved.

To respond to everyone who was been losing weapons in the abyss and similar places, it is probably due to your inventory being full, and thus the weapon being unable to go back to it.

People have been raising some very good points about inventory fiddliness, in particular the problem I just described. For the next update, I'm going to try and fix that with a couple placeholder items (sashes) that make sure your inventory management is much simpler:

• Red Sash: Will be given to you when joining the god (and it's mandatory to have space for it). You can't drop it until you abandon. Weapons manifested by IJC will take the space of the Red Sash, and it will reappear once the weapons shatter. This means that giving the Red Sash a keybinding will make all summoned weapons adopt that keybinding.
• Gold Sash: This will only appear when your own weapon is animated. It will inherit the hotkey of your equipped weapon and will stick around until your weapon returns.

This should hopefully put an end to all the inventory issues and make sure no more weapons are swallowed by the game or prevented return to your inventory.

[Angani]

Unsure if intended or not, but once you reach the piety level at which you can attack by moving next to things, it also affects invisible things you've not seen, like Unseen Horrors. While I do like how it makes taking them out effortless, it seems strange to me to have that ability affect things you can't see.
Thoughts on that?

EDIT: I appear to have duplicated my weapon into three somehow as well.
Having three +5 scimitars doesn't seem particularly useful, but it happened.
Am I missing an application of it there?

Spoiler: show

  Code:

You project the +5 scimitar of freezing.
 The +5 scimitar of freezing hits the ice dragon!
 The ice dragon is lightly wounded.
 You can feel the presence of Sifu Deng Ai wielding the +5 scimitar of freezing.
 You are now empty-handed.
_The ice dragon completely misses your +5 scimitar of freezing. x3
 You swap places. You lunge at the ice dragon.
 You hit the ice dragon but do no damage.
 The ice dragon is lightly wounded.
 The ice dragon breathes frost at you.
 The blast of cold hits you! You resist.
 The blast of cold hits your +5 scimitar of freezing.
 Your +5 scimitar of freezing resists.
_The +5 scimitar of freezing shatters and reforms elsewhere!
 You see here a crocodile corpse.
 You spin and strike the ice dragon!
 Your shield prevents you from hitting the ice dragon.
 The ice dragon is lightly wounded.
 You block the ice dragon's attack. The ice dragon misses you.
_You block the ice dragon's attack.
 You're too focused keeping your weapon in the air.
 You're too focused keeping your weapon in the air.
 You spin and strike the ice dragon! You punch the ice dragon!
 The ice dragon is moderately wounded.
 The ice dragon completely misses you. You block the ice dragon's attack.
_The ice dragon tramples you! You hold your ground!
 You see here a crocodile corpse.
 You swap places.
 Your +5 scimitar of freezing hits the ice dragon but does no damage.
 The ice dragon completely misses your +5 scimitar of freezing. x3
_Your +5 scimitar of freezing hits the ice dragon.
 You see here a +5 scimitar of freezing.
 O - a +5 scimitar of freezing
 Your +5 scimitar of freezing hits the ice dragon!
 Your +5 scimitar of freezing hits the ice dragon.
 The ice dragon bites your +5 scimitar of freezing.
_The +5 scimitar of freezing shatters and reforms elsewhere!
 You're too focused keeping your weapon in the air.
_The +5 scimitar of freezing flies back to you!
 You lunge at the ice dragon. You slash the ice dragon!
 The ice dragon is heavily wounded.
_You block the ice dragon's attack. x2; The ice dragon closely misses you.
 You attack the ice dragon while airborne!
 You hit the ice dragon.
 The ice dragon is heavily wounded.
 The ice dragon breathes frost at you.
_The blast of cold misses you.
 You hit the ice dragon but do no damage.
 The ice dragon is heavily wounded.
 The ice dragon closely misses you.
 The ice dragon claws you but does no damage.
_The ice dragon tramples you but does no damage.
 You slice the ice dragon!!
 The ice dragon is severely wounded.
 The ice dragon closely misses you. You block the ice dragon's attack.
_The ice dragon tramples you! You stumble backwards!
 You hit the ice dragon but do no damage.
 The ice dragon is severely wounded.
 The ice dragon bites you. You block the ice dragon's attack.
_The ice dragon tramples you but does no damage.
 You slash the ice dragon! You freeze the ice dragon.
 The ice dragon is severely wounded.
 The ice dragon breathes frost at you.
_The blast of cold hits you! You resist.
 You slash the ice dragon! You freeze the ice dragon.
 The ice dragon is almost dead.
 The ice dragon bites you but does no damage.
 You block the ice dragon's attack. The ice dragon tramples you!
_You stumble backwards!
 You hit the ice dragon but do no damage.
 The ice dragon is almost dead.
 The ice dragon closely misses you. x2; The ice dragon tramples you.
_You stumble backwards!
 You attack the ice dragon while airborne!
 You hit the ice dragon but do no damage.
 The ice dragon is almost dead.
 The ice dragon bites you. You block the ice dragon's attack.
_The ice dragon misses you.
 You slash the ice dragon!
 You kill the ice dragon!
 Sifu Cai Fang accepts your kill.
_Your Fighting skill increases to level 9!
 Things that are here:
_a +5 scimitar of freezing; a crocodile corpse
 Things that are here:
 a +5 scimitar of freezing; a crocodile corpse
_P - a +5 scimitar of freezing