Make all Draconian breath weapons perfectly accurate

[PowerOfKaishin]

Why? Because I die a little inside when I get one of the crappy colors like Mottled or Black.

The best breath weapons are almost undebatably Pale and then Red, because they generate clouds that can be used to do various things like block LoS or create chokepoints. Coincidentally, a good chunk of their damage is unavoidable (in case of the Pale draconian, all of it).

Green is third in usefulness, as it generates mephitic clouds which, again, cannot be dodged. Enemies must instead make the HD check, which is significantly harder to make, especially when you have to do it more than once since the clouds don't disappear in one turn. It falls off later but it's reliable when you get it, which, consistent with the poison school of magic, is supposed to be the case.

I think it is a little ridiculous that the other five breath weapons are so useless because of how terribly inaccurate they are combined with the significant cooldown timer attached to them. They should be buffed so that they are perfectly accurate. This is a fundamental part of the Draconian playstyle and is designed to be a game changer and not simply a gimmick.

If the Orc Sorcerer buffs itself with Haste, I shouldn't just have a 20% chance of removing it if I successfully fire quicksilver breath at it. It should always hit. The chance is so unreliable that it's not even worth it to use it in the situations that it was specifically designed for.

Draconians are supposed to be about adaptating to the color you get, but that doesn't mean they should be so heavily imbalanced with regards to one another. If steam breath can be used to deal lots of damage, why can't lightning breath or acid breath?

[ZipZipskins]

Alternatively, make either all breath weapons generate clouds, or none of them.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Alternatively, make either all breath weapons generate clouds, or none of them.

This certainly isn't a bad solution, but freezing clouds could potentially break the game unless White got a nerfed version of them (which I don't think will happen, since I'm pretty sure there's only one type of freezing cloud.

[minstrel]

I die a little inside when I get one of the crappy colors like Mottled or Black.

This 19 times over. Some of the colors are just a letdown and, unlike demonspawn, you don't have more fun mutations to make up for it.

[Siegurt]

I die a little inside when I get one of the crappy colors like Mottled or Black.

This 19 times over. Some of the colors are just a letdown and, unlike demonspawn, you don't have more fun mutations to make up for it.

I think you either overestimate some colors, or underestimate others, all of the breath weapons are at least fun to play with, and none of the breath weapons or aptitudes change your game so fundamentally that it either drastically increases or decreases your power level.

For me the most defining thing about dracs is the increased survivability with no body armour penalties. Which breath weapon you get, by comparison, is a very minor thing.

[adozu]

unless you get red and receive a free pass for several levels.

[Airwolf]

Or green.

[ZipZipskins]

Red gives you a free pass for more than several levels.

[Elitist]

If we make all Draconian breath weapons perfectly accurate, they're going to make DRAINING breath perfectly accurate. Do you want that?

[ZipZipskins]

Player ghosts are balance nonsense and everyone knows it. The way changes to species affect player ghosts shouldn't really enter the discussion

[PowerOfKaishin]

If we make all Draconian breath weapons perfectly accurate, they're going to make DRAINING breath perfectly accurate. Do you want that?

What Zip said. Besides, Draconian breath only needs to hit once to ruin your day and frankly speaking, it already has plenty of chances to do that.

I think you either overestimate some colors, or underestimate others, all of the breath weapons are at least fun to play with

I can respect the fun-to-play-with viewpoint, but the fact of the matter is that lightning breath isn't fun to play because of how much it misses.

and none of the breath weapons or aptitudes change your game so fundamentally that it either drastically increases or decreases your power level.

Steam and Fire breath don't change the game drastically? You're joking right?

[Siegurt]

I think you either overestimate some colors, or underestimate others, all of the breath weapons are at least fun to play with

I can respect the fun-to-play-with viewpoint, but the fact of the matter is that lightning breath isn't fun to play because of how much it misses.

Black dragon breath is pretty much disc of storms, with no evocation requirements, if you use it in similar situations where you would use a disc of storms, I think you will find it quite effective, however it is definitely not useful in the same situations as most other dragon breath. (For example when you are softening up crowds without a specific target that you would like to hit)

and none of the breath weapons or aptitudes change your game so fundamentally that it either drastically increases or decreases your power level.

Steam and Fire breath don't change the game drastically? You're joking right?

Maybe we have different definitions of "drastically".

Part of my opinions on this probably stem from a feeling that draconians are pretty strong even without a breath weapon, so i don't feel like the differences in power between the breath weapons are really all that important, it isn't very hard to win a draconian without ever using a breath weapon.

To be clear i am not saying that pale and red aren't better than some of the other colors. I am saying breath weapons aren't really the primary factor in draconians overall power level, and even the "worst" colors play comfortably powerful

[PowerOfKaishin]

Black dragon breath is pretty much disc of storms, with no evocation requirements, if you use it in similar situations where you would use a disc of storms, I think you will find it quite effective, however it is definitely not useful in the same situations as most other dragon breath. (For example when you are softening up crowds without a specific target that you would like to hit)

Please never again compare the craptasticness of Black Dragon Breath to the amazingness that is the Disc of Storms. You use DoS multiple times, it hits many, many more times, and I'm pretty sure it does more damage per hit too. Letting yourself get surrounded to use BDB on a bunch of things is a terrible strategy, especially considering it might miss and leave you surrounded. Why would I ever use this but for any reason other than my eyes getting a little too dry?

Maybe we have different definitions of "drastically".

Part of my opinions on this probably stem from a feeling that draconians are pretty strong even without a breath weapon, so i don't feel like the differences in power between the breath weapons are really all that important, it isn't very hard to win a draconian without ever using a breath weapon.

To be clear i am not saying that pale and red aren't better than some of the other colors. I am saying breath weapons aren't really the primary factor in draconians overall power level, even the "worst" colors play comfortably powerful

That's because defensively, Draconians have free AC not tied to a skill, spellcaster EV (which easily offsets the DEX malus), and are Robust. Offensively, they also have almost no trouble at all smashing things into bits and their spellcasting doesn't lag behind either, being no worse than a human's (0 to -1 for two spell schools is offset by all the extra xp from spending nothing in the armour skill). Although ranged weaponry tends to have an opportunity cost attached, Draconians can do anything they want and they're good at all of it.

But you knew this already. What you might not know, however, is that the reason you think breath aren't that important is because over half of the Draconian breath weapons are incredibly unreliable and/or nearly useless on what is one of the best races in the game.

I want this not to be the case. I want them to be useful. I love using steam and fire breath to blow shit up. I also like using mephitic breath to a lesser decrease (broken tab keys from hitting confused opponents hurts it a bit). I hate seeing dispel breath miss when I want to use it to do its job and then having to wait 20 some turns doing things that aren't firing a breath weapon. Same with cold breath, lightning breath, sticky breath, and acid breath. If they were all perfectly accurate I would have a blast using them (no pun intended), but for now I don't. I eventually even forget they exist because they're so damn useless.

I'm going to leave grey out of this discussion, though it's fun walking into water to smash more things.

Anyway, it's not about balancing the class to be winnable. Yes, like you said and you are completely right, they are already more than winnable. It's about balancing the colors so that I can enjoy using a breath weapon regardless of which breath weapon I get.

[Shard1697]

Except they don't, because they miss, a lot, and they have a cooldown attached.

They're not talking about the breath, they're talking about playing a draconian in general.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Except they don't, because they miss, a lot, and they have a cooldown attached.

They're not talking about the breath, they're talking about playing a draconian in general.

oh, whoops. I'll just delete that part then.

Um... slightly unrelated: is that the only part of my post you saw?

[Shard1697]

No, it's just the only part I'm taking time to answer.

Draconian breath is really unbalanced though, it's true. But it's not the #1 thing I want changed about draconians, that would firstly be making the drac colors in line with dragon colors(making mottled dragons/draconians acidic, removing yellow draconians, making elec draconians blue, etc), and secondly removing ghost drac breath or not changing how it functions when they become a ghost.

[Cimanyd]

making mottled dragons/draconians acidic, removing yellow draconians,

In trunk, mottled draconians were removed, and mottled dragons replaced with acid dragons to match yellow draconians.