The Tavern

I've brought up in relation to Basajaunak that Og and Tr are already redundant, and I think I'll give this its own thread.

Currently the defining features of Og are:
- High HP, but low AC/EV
- +3 maces aptitude and ability to use giant (spiked) clubs and large rocks. In gameplay, this means very high melee damage, a no-brainer melee weapon choice, and a no-brainer ranged weapon choice.
- Awful spellcasting aptitudes and int
- Lots of strength

Currently the defining features of Tr are:
- High HP, but low AC/EV, with the exception that their AC is high for D:1
- Claws 3, an unarmed aptitude higher than any of their other aptitudes, and ability to use large rocks. In gameplay, this means very high melee damage, a no-brainer melee weapon choice, and a no-brainer ranged weapon choice.
- Awful spellcasting aptitudes and int
- Lots of strength
- You regenerate and eat a lot
- Statue form is really good for you if you don't mind spending tons of xp

"Trolls are like Ogres, but even nastier." is a sentence in the manual, and unlike the rest of the manual, this sentence is correct and up-to-date. Trolls just aren't different from ogres in any exciting, defining way. Trolls get a little less HP/MP/EV/accuracy/spell success (unless it's an earth spell), and a better early game that more than makes up for it. That's about it. The introduction of Vine Stalkers encroached on this design space even further, by adding another species with high melee damage and regeneration.
If both species are to be kept in the game, then I suggest an overhaul to make Og and Tr more genuinely different. Since their most noticeable features at the moment are melee damage and HP, I'd suggest splitting them by those two features.

"New" Og would try to fill the "HP tank" role, without having tons of damage. It would have:
- Maces and Throwing aptitudes reduced to -2 or -3. Ideally, make all other weapon apts -1 or -2 as well.
- XP and fighting aptitudes stay, HP could be increased to 40% or 50% if you want Og to remain super overpowered
- In place of Basajaun, you could improve Og's spell school aptitudes to -1 and reduce their strength and increase their int, making them a more balanced species. I don't think Basajaun have enough reason to be added as a third large species.

"New" Tr would try to fill the damage role, without having tons of HP. It would keep its unarmed aptitude and mutations, but its HP would be reduced to +0%. Ideally it would get positive non-unarmed/maces/throwing aptitudes to avoid no-brainers. If you want it to remain super overpowered too, increase its non-HP aptitudes. This is worryingly close to VS, but species design space is so crowded that I cannot think of anything more differentiated, short of adding entirely new mechanics, which shouldn't be considered an option.

Why? Trolls are scary, they might have a chance to disable monsters in some way. Fear would be a penalty to melee characters so maybe confusion? Chance can depend on XL and HD.

A nice list of ways to utterly ruin both trolls and ogres. Ogres already suck, you seem to want to make them worse. I wouldn't mind seeing ogres get slightly more balanced apts, but -3 throwing and mace apts? Really?

Trolls are large, a rather... large differentiation from vine stalkers. Not getting to wear most armor leads to pretty different play, and is at least part of the reason why they should have lots of HP.

Vine stalkers have a tiny amount of HP, built in mana shield, and an antimagic MP leeching bite. The only thing in common with trolls is a high regen rate.

You could just increase Og's spell school aptitudes to -1 or 0, no compensatory nerfs to Og are needed. Ogres aren't even that good. If I had to win one game with a non-Berserker warrior-type character I would take my chances with a fair number of other races over an Ogre. Same goes for a mage background.

How do I downvote a post?

Ogres are already HP tanks I believe. I'd expect a person saying how anything after very early game doesn't matter to understand it.

I think you`re completely right minmay, but I would really hate to see either species changed much. I`m not convinced that `every race must be unique flakes of purest snow` is a real design goal, and that no-brainers make sense sometimes. Both large species being able to use large rocks doesn't bother me, nor does the fact that trolls are large with huge HP and have good unarmed to match the claws. I don`t think I`ve ever seen a troll enemy using a weapon.

Of course ogres are already HP tanks, that's why I said their fighting/hp aptitudes don't need to change.
The balance target here is to make both species approximately as good as humans, not keep their current power level.

Totally support making ogres better at magic, but I like trolls.

I see the reduncancy argument but the early troll and ogre games are different enough to me that I'd like to keep both of them; Troll you walk around and tab things, ogre you go looking for giant club so you can walk around and tab things. Competely different!

Trolls tend to use UC since they have claws + high regen rate
Ogres tend to use maces since +3 apt, need some XP to kill that D3/D4 ogre, needs lot of XP to be efficient with club smashing, entire game with normal regen rate

redundant

adjective re·dun·dant \ri-ˈdən-dənt\

: repeating something else and therefore unnecessary

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redundant

These two almost have no striking similarities except they both have high HP, preference to melee and not being able to wear most armors. If that's what you consider redundancy, then Minotaurs are redundant with them too, right? What's a mere 50 hp and the ability to wear all armors difference gotta do when the 3 of them basically all do the same thing? Minotaurs and Ogres both have good apts and depend on weapons too.

I don't see any redundancy here except for OP's complaint. We already know that melee crawl always sums up to bumping things until they die that's why melee focused characters, regardless of race always look the same. It is always understandable if their only differences in the end are a few apts and/or some special snowflake innate mutations.

The only change I support is flattening Ogre's spell and weapon aptitudes. I don't mind Trolls being a no-brainer. No-brainers can be fun, too.