Tornado feedback

[sardonica]

Use my phone to post here so cant put up a dump. Basically the new DECj. Someone decided Conjurers should be ice/air mages, and start with freezing cloud. Got a lucky early books with flight and rmsl and haste. Though I only cast haste about five times. When V started gifting I ramped up to hungerless on all conjurations. Found tornado later and it was almost at honeycomb after swamp. Rocked elf, slime, and shoals. Flight+tornado w Vehumet make shoals an absolute joke. Got lucky in abyss and found the rune early. Vaults was also trivialized by dmsl and tornado. Seriously it makes the vault guards into nothing, I took maybe 200 damage total in the entire vaults.

Ran my butt through Geh. The vestibule was cool. Cast dmsl, enter, cast tornado, hit space and look at all the red text. While smite--f...ing the boss with airstrike.

The new xp system is cool because you dont have to metagame as much.

In conclusion, tornado needs to be nerfed hard. Ill start a thread

[slowcar]

tornado just was nerfed. it also has the backdraw of pulling half the level to you due to the racket you make.

[galehar]

Yeah, with all the recent changes to tornado, your feedback would be much more helpful if you told us what version you played.

[sardonica]

Sorry, it was the latest build of 0.9 as of 21 07 2011.

I think casting while tornado is up shouldnt be allowed.

[Kate]

Having just cleared something like 11 Zigs on a 0.9 Tornado character I'd probably agree that the damage should be reduced further before release. Even if it's back to the 6 damage dice (it's 9 at the moment, and was 12 for a while which was even more absurd) that it was after the radius/cooldown changes (since we never even had a chance to actually test that bug-free, if I recall correctly).

[KoboldLord]

I don't think spells should be balanced based on their performance in Zigs, though. Zig running is the only point in the game where you get to completely disregard xp and loot as factors, and with all relevant skills and resistances maxed there's really only a couple monster sets that even require preparation.

In the particular case of this game, Tornado is still a 9th-level spell getting taken through Shoals. Of course it's going to kill everything. Fire Storm, Ice Storm, and Shatter would do the same. If this is a problem, it's a problem that has persisted since pre-Stone Soup days.

Mind you, the new xp system does make it easier to get those 9th-level spells working earlier, since you can make sure absolutely nothing gets leeched off into absolutely anything else, and Tornado is once again single-school. It might be worth looking at 9th-level spells again, I suppose.

[sardonica]

The difference between tornado and those other spells, which ive taken through shoals as well, is that tornado can actually pay for itself w Vehumet, and running out of mp is never a problem. With clouds one bad cast and you're retreating.ose other spells, which ive taken through shoals as well, is that tornado can actually pay for itself w Vehumet, and running out of mp is never a problem. With clouds one bad cast and you're retreating.

[galehar]

I don't think spells should be balanced based on their performance in Zigs, though.

That's true. Although if a spell feels overpowered in Zigs, it should be even worse elsewhere, right? But the point of tornado is that it's very efficient regarding damage/MP. The drawback being that it takes more time to kill monsters with it compared to the other L9 big guns. I'm guessing that it's especially efficient combined with Makhleb in Zigs.

In the particular case of this game, Tornado is still a 9th-level spell getting taken through Shoals. Of course it's going to kill everything. Fire Storm, Ice Storm, and Shatter would do the same.

Getting the storm spells to clear branch ends is pretty rare. The fact that they are dual school does make a difference. Even with the new XP system, getting them before zot requires exceptional aptitudes, Veh and wizardry. Tornado and Shatter can be learned much sooner with dedication. So Tornado should really be balanced to have usually less raw power than firestorm, but the spell having such different mechanism it's not so simple to compare them. So we may end up with some cases where tornado is more efficient than firestorm, like in Zigs, combined with Makhleb for example.

PS: should I just move and rename the entire thread? The OP barely talks about his own game.

[Kate]

Yes, exactly. Substitute "clears 11 Zigs with trivial effort" with "clears all of Tomb, V:8, Slime:6, Zot:5, all the hell lords and all the pan lords with trivial effort", if you prefer.

[galehar]

Yes, exactly. Substitute "clears 11 Zigs with trivial effort" with "clears all of Tomb, V:8, Slime:6, Zot:5, all the hell lords and all the pan lords with trivial effort", if you prefer.

Then nerf it. Back to 6d? Do it while kb is away

[KoboldLord]

That's true. Although if a spell feels overpowered in Zigs, it should be even worse elsewhere, right? But the point of tornado is that it's very efficient regarding damage/MP. The drawback being that it takes more time to kill monsters with it compared to the other L9 big guns. I'm guessing that it's especially efficient combined with Makhleb in Zigs.

Zig levels are always undifferentiated masses of enemies, mostly centering around a single counter-able gimmick, in a completely open area. This happens to play right into Tornado's strengths, but it isn't really representative of normal gameplay. There are only a handful of areas in the late game where you fight this kind of horde, and most of them aren't very challenging with or without Tornado.

I'd like a Zig overhaul, myself. Big Undifferentiated Horde is an okay threat, but it would be more interesting if levels had different rules. Some levels could have strict time limits to get to the treasure, for instance, and you have to rush past the dangerous monsters without actually fighting many or any if you want any loot. Or perhaps some levels could have smaller numbers of monsters, but more enter from portals constantly from the edge of the level.

Tornado's not quite so great in a duel against a single powerful opponent, like an orb of fire, or an ancient lich, or one of the Pan Lords. It deals damage very efficiently, but as these monsters can hit back very effectively too it is often better to deal damage quickly rather than efficiently. Ice Storm will kill a single target faster than Tornado, and while you'll have to retreat to rest, most areas allow for resting at leisure. When I run a Tornado character, I often find that I need to train melee to kill fast enough for my tastes, and at that point I might as well Summon Horrible Things instead of Tornado against single targets.

Tornado may well be overpowered, particularly as a single-school spell, but I think it's close enough to acceptable that it needs a light touch. 0.8 Tornado was another story entirely.

[asdu]

I'm currently playing a tornado caster, I started the game in a version where Tornado was at its most nerfed (the new cooldown/radius/etc mechanics and 6 damage dice) and I later upgraded to the latest trunk version.

The nerfed Tornado seems pretty good for the typical 3-rune stuff. It seems to destroy most mid-late game monsters, but on its own it's not enough to kill dangerous uniques or high HP monsters like shadow dragons, titans or orbs of fire before they have time to do significant damage.
On the other hand I tried to fight Tiamat's band and had to give up twice: after 2 Tornados and while meleeing her the whole time (with a character that could take anything but the highest-end monsters in melee) she wasn't even at half HP and some of the tougher draconians accompanying her were still alive (and I was nearly dead ). Considering that Tiamat is on par, at least HP-wise, with the weaker Hell/Pan lords, I doubt I could have relied on Tornado to do anything significant in post-endgame rune floors, let alone in Zigs.
The new mechanics, especially cooldown, only seem justified in light of being able to cast it in time for branch ends. I doubt this low damage version of Tornado but wihtout cooldown would be overpowered in Zot:5.

I then upgraded the game to the latest trunk, and my impression is that Tornado is back to 0.8 levels of craziness. Here, the new restrictions are almost meaningless: cooldown doesn't matter when almost everything dies with one cast, altough I guess the expanding radius might matter a lot on Tornado's effectiveness in Zigs. Speaking of Zigs, I'm looking forward to try Tornado in them, I have a little issue to settle with some mummies...

Overall, I think the best choices would be either the low damage version but with no cooldown (like it was after the first 0.9 nerf), or a middle ground damage nerf while retaining the cooldown. I have no idea how it could be tweaked so it isn't overpowered in a 3 rune mid-late game while still being significantly useful for the hardest extended endgame stuff.

[galehar]

Thread moved an renamed.

[sardonica]

I think two interesting options would be to disallow casting or cause slow during tornado duration. Then it could be really strong without being godlike.

[Kate]

I reduced the damage (again), if anyone gets a chance to play with it whenever the trunk builds update then more feedback is appreciated! I think in terms of drawbacks, the warmup and cooldown (and reduced power in enclosed spaces) is what we want to try and stick with, and the damage should just be tweaked to get it at an appropriate power level rather than adding any new drawbacks.

[Hydralisk]

It's probably not a "proper" feedback, since I played with the new Tornado for only a couple of minutes, but it's better than nothing, right?

I made a Wizard in b1-53 and pumped primarily Spellcasting/Air. Picked up Tornado right before Vaults at [#########.] power. It was very powerful in rooms, killing most stuff in 1 cast, uniques in 2 casts, but did nothing in corridors. Today I upgraded to b1-59, ran into Frederick in a large empty room, casted Tornado, and it only removed about 1/3 health from him, then he killed me when I started second cast. Now I can remember killing Frederick multiple times before with Freezing cloud with no problems at all. Maybe it was really unlucky low-damage roll from RNG, but it feels totally wrong that a lavel 6 3-school spell does more damage than a level 9 single-school spell. It's probably emotions speaking, I shouldn't judge just from one encounter, etc., but from now on I perceive Tornado as "totally worthless" in terms of damage output and switching to Fire/Ice Storm for endgame.

If the problem is that the player can get access to end-game spell too early (e.g. before Vaults), then maybe make the spell less accessible by making it Conj/Air or something?

[jejorda2]

Would it make any sense to get rid of the current Ice Storm (It's too much like fire storm) and rename Tornado to Ice Storm, an Ice/Air spell. Give it the old damage, but make it as resistable as Throw icicle. Then you have one spell at the top of two schools, but is that a problem?

[KoboldLord]

I just did another Tornado 15-Runer, and it really isn't worth casting for the last 8 or so of those. There simply aren't enough masses of dangerous, but not too dangerous monsters to use it on during the course of a normal game. In nearly every case, a dangerous horde that would be perfect for Tornado can be dealt with simply by killing a few on the edge and then retreating, letting them spread out through the level and killed piecemeal.

Take Vaults 8 for instance. The welcoming committee is almost entirely incapable of killing any character that has any business down there at all; you stair-dance them upstairs a few at a time. Not only is this safer even if you have Tornado, you don't wake up all the glowing shapeshifters that are sitting on your loot if you kill the guards on another level. Taking Tornado through the Snake 5 vault, or the Vaults 8 entry, or what have you looks pretty cool when you are getting screenshots for a Where I Play or have other players kibbitzing while viewing your game, but it isn't actually any more effective than standard methods of dealing with crowded vaults. I don't think Tornado should have to compensate for being extra-cool by being less useful in practical terms.

In duels against one target, Tornado is currently nearly useless. Air magic has access to Poisonous Cloud, Freezing Cloud, and bounced Lightning Bolts. It already has great tools to deal damage to a single target mp-efficiently, and all of these other methods don't involve forcibly moving a dangerous opponent into melee with you. Fire Storm or Ice Storm will take out an orb of fire in 3 turns for 27mp, at which point you can run back to the stairs to completely bypass the disadvantages of making noise and being at half mp. Tornado will take several times as long to kill that orb of fire, even if you supplement your damage with melee or direct damage conjurations, and the whole time you're chained in place right where all the noise is sending the monsters. Tornado kills draconian packs real nice, it is true, but you're presumably an air mage which means you could have just thrown Freezing Clouds in a corridor to kill them all and moved to a cross-corridor where you can bounce Lightning Bolt through any white ones that managed to make it through.

I don't think pure air Tornado was a good idea. It makes a strong version of Tornado far too easy to get, and a weak version of Tornado can't compete with the alternatives in its own elemental skill, much less other high-end combat options like Fire Storm, Ice Storm, or Summon Horrible Things.

[dpeg]

koboldlord: offtopic, but if you're interested in changing ziggurats, comment on the wiki (it is easy), else nothing will happen.

[tazoz]

I don't really understand why the most obvious nerf hasn't been implemented yet. (while increasing the damage)

Earth magic is good versus non flying, tornado can be good versus flying as they are counterparts. It would make tornado much less effective in Zigs, as ancient liches etc. would resist it.

[galehar]

I don't really understand why the most obvious nerf hasn't been implemented yet. (while increasing the damage)

Earth magic is good versus non flying, tornado can be good versus flying as they are counterparts. It would make tornado much less effective in Zigs, as ancient liches etc. would resist it.

Yeah, I thought about that but tornado makes all monster levitate. So it wouldn't make much sense if it dealt more damage to a monster just because it was already in the air before. Or would it?

[tazoz]

Hmm.. Remove the levitating effect of tornado, as it doesn't really do anything anyway (except maybe help air strike) or maybe make the levitating effect affect only small creatures if you don't want to part with the thematic element of levitating creatures. (I can't really see stone giants flying about anyway)

[pratamawirya]

Good idea, tazoz.

[galehar]

Hmm.. Remove the levitating effect of tornado, as it doesn't really do anything anyway (except maybe help air strike) or maybe make the levitating effect affect only small creatures if you don't want to part with the thematic element of levitating creatures. (I can't really see stone giants flying about anyway)

But it also push monsters around, and this is nice flavour. If they don't levitate, then it becomes much easier to toss them in water/lava. Maybe if the levitation wasn't guaranteed, but has a chance which depends on monster size and spell power. And then extra damage to all things flying (or reduced damage for things on the ground).

[jejorda2]

It seems like creatures who can fly have the ability to control their movement by influencing the flow of air around them. They can angle their wings to reduce the impact of the wind.

Whether this means they don't get moved by the tornado (or not as much) or that they take reduced damage, I can't quite say, but it gives a flavor to dividing effects by those who can fly on their own and those who can't even when everything has been forcibly levitated.

[tsouns]

Tornado can't lift everything up from the ground. Heavy enough objects won't fly or move. Also if an object is flat enough on the ground, so that wind can't get below it, the object won't be lifted or moved by the wind. Tall, light or small density objects are the most affected by wind.

A stone giant will be hardly moved or hurt by wind. Wings of any monsters will likely have their wings ripped off and thrown by wind large distances. A snake-like creature might have a chance to resist wind by staying still in a pothole he happened to be in.

[galehar]

It seems like creatures who can fly have the ability to control their movement by influencing the flow of air around them. They can angle their wings to reduce the impact of the wind.

The point of the idea was to make tornado more effective against flying creature, not less. Reduced damage against flying monsters is what shatter does, so it would be more interesting (both for flavour and gameplay) to have tornado deals more damage against flying monsters. Even if it hurts realism a bit.

Tornado can't lift everything up from the ground. Heavy enough objects won't fly or move. Also if an object is flat enough on the ground, so that wind can't get below it, the object won't be lifted or moved by the wind. Tall, light or small density objects are the most affected by wind.

A stone giant will be hardly moved or hurt by wind. Wings of any monsters will likely have their wings ripped off and thrown by wind large distances. A snake-like creature might have a chance to resist wind by staying still in a pothole he happened to be in.

We certainly don't want to bother with that level of details. We can take into account monster and item size, but not shape. The tornado is magical, so we don't have to limit ourselves with what RL tornado can do (and they can hurl cars, right?). Lifting monsters up to large (ogre) is easy, big (hydra) harder (only possible at high power) and giant isn't possible.

[tazoz]

A way to solve the dropping into lava or water problem is for tornado to only move around flying creatures. It makes sense as the idea is that ground creatures hold on to something thus protecting themselves from the strong winds. It would also further differentiate between flying and non flying creatures.

Tsouns: Great comment about why flying creatures would be damaged more seriously.

[tazoz]

I tested out the spell in trunk and what the spell is, is a spell that is only useful in open areas, that takes 4 turns to kill a stone giant and that wakes up the whole level meaning you will be pelted with arrows and stones while waiting for the spell to kill the original stone giant who is being moved to flank you and block your path and if a stone giant enters the radius with only three more cycles of wind before the spell ends, you will have to wait until the cool down dies out and cast it again, while being attacked by the giant, you could cast other spells while casting tornado, but the other spells would have killed the creature anyway even without tornado making it exceptionally non mana efficient. As it stands now the spell is terrible, getting it actually made the game harder and I doubt it if that was the intention.

It was even terrible in places that Tornado should have been ideal for such as blade, with a limited amount of low hp creatures. Until I got the spell I was cruising along killing everything quite easily with poisonous clouds (good idea changing to level 6) and chain lightning, after I got it every battle I used it in was a near death experience as I had to spam other spells to try to kill the horde of creatures rushing at me while the spell does nothing. It's ironic but the correct action would have been to forget the spell and take other more useful spells with the spell slots.

[slowcar]

Tornado is fine if you play a melee character that needs some extra oomph, but for a primary caster it works more along the line of (un)projected noise.
i especially dislike the cooldown, standing next to panlords and fiends and waiting for it to expire is not really fun.

[sanka]

A level 9 spell is not very good to meele characters. It's not so easy to cast, even if it's single school.

In power it should be comparable to shatter. I'd like to see some feedback about how these two spells compare - I have the personal feeling that tornado is was underpowered in 0.9 compared to shatter.

[galehar]

A level 9 spell is not very good to meele characters. It's not so easy to cast, even if it's single school.

In power it should be comparable to shatter. I'd like to see some feedback about how these two spells compare - I have the personal feeling that tornado is was underpowered in 0.9 compared to shatter.

It's very hard to objectively compare them because they are so different. Tornado can do more than twice the damage of shatter with optimal setting (melee range and open space) and eight time the damage against flying monsters. But it takes more time to deal the damage too, so total damage is often higher, but damage per turn is much lower.

[galehar]

Also, I created a new page on the wiki dedicated to proposals for improving tornado's balance.

[njvack]

Just a thought: what if tornado power, instead of being higher for flying monsters, scaled with monster size such that large monsters took less damage than small ones? Then, one way to adjust the spell's effectiveness would be to adjust monster size.

That'd also make monster size more relevant -- I'm not actually sure whether it does anything right now.