Ranged weapons: alternative to ammo management?

[minstrel]

As to your particular proposal though (point blank counterattacks) I can't say I see any alternative to switching to melee. The other things you've mentioned (raising ranged skill higher or defenses higher) seem unlikely to have more impact than simply training up a melee weapon.

Given the current fairly low cost of getting a melee weapon to average delay, I suspect you might be right. I'd like to think there's at least a persuasive enough argument to be made to try it out first though and that some tweaking to damage/delay values or the % chance of retaliation might be what it takes to hit a sweet spot where full ranged/no melee is viable. I wouldn't mind if it necessitated armor/dodging investment.

[jwoodward48ss]

A melee weapon, an okay melee weapon, a decent melee weapon, a good melee weapon, or a superb melee weapon?

Daggers are melee, but they're really sucky for non-stabbing. War axes are okay, broad axes are decent, battle axes are good, and exec axes are superb. Each of these takes progressively more XP. If your current ranged weapon deals more damage than your best melee, then you should use your ranged weapon on everything but popcorn, barring ammo issues. Getting a melee weapon to deal as much damage as your current ranged weapon will take much XP, right?

[Psieye]

Yes, I have made an unreasonable challenge when I asked people to contemplate ammo scarcity in a vacuum. Thank you Siegurt and minstrel for the robust counters. I am pleased this incident stimulated a fresh direction of discussion. Now that we have fleshed out the 'terrain' of the problem for ammo scarcity's side, we can better ponder on creativity for both sides.

One thing that does keep cropping up is Evo. A strong signal that an ammo scarcity vision needs to be broader than just 'ranged reform'. Perhaps condensing launcher skills plus some of Evo's territory is the right move. Maybe there's room to step into conj too: like a Conj/Launcher spell or something more subtle than that.

[Lasty]

I think it's hard to argue the following, and I see a fair amount of consensus here on the following:
* Almost all imagined implementations of ranged that aren't OP involve an irritating level of weapon-switching and thus demand a ranged slot.
* Ammo is irritating and goldifying ammo is a good idea.
* Picking up ammo is irritating, and thus ammo should always mulch.

We agree on so much! What we don't agree on is whether ranged combat can be an interesting primary combat option. There are a bunch of proposals in here: ranged weapons deal less damage up close; ranged weapons deal less damage at range; ranged weapons deal less damage overall; ranged weapons deal full damage but prompt counterattacks. I think that none of these are good ideas for modifiers on a primary attack form, though the counterattacks idea is the closest. These proposals tend to have two of the three following problems: 1) They allow you to deal a lot of damage safely almost all the time, which is OP. 2) They deal too little damage to be worth investing in. 3) They make you do irritating things to get the most out of them. They also mostly 4) don't address the problem that killing most monsters in the game by hitting repeatedly hitting tab from anywhere on the screen provides less interesting tactics than the other primary attack methods in the game.

My decision to aim for a limited-ammo plan is based not on a ruthless desire to cut ranged-as-primary, but rather a conviction that there isn't a _good_ way to do it. I believe that the only hope ranged has is as a limited option, because as a limited option it allows you to sometimes ignore range and positioning rather than always doing so.

Yes, I'm aware that Conjurations can sometimes also remove concern for range and positioning, but I find that in the majority of the game, you are forced to consider range and positioning, and limited mp means you have to consider noise, level shape, and other factors more than other characters do.

[njvack]

Yeah: I'm agreed that missile attacks as a "basically unlimited" thing is fundamentally problematic. In many many cases, you have the option to spend a turn hurting a monster or not, and with unlimited missiles, it's almost always a good call to hurl the thing.

Conjurations have a bunch of side effects and restrictions and a tactical limit in MP that missiles don't share.

Making missiles a very powerful option that is strategically limited in quantity sounds to me like a good place to start. It is, at least, a design space not currently filled. (Well, kind of evokers but they're tactically limited too.)

This gets a bit OT, but it might be worth thinking about either making bows and crossbows more different (maybe xbows are weaker or much slower but always get piercing?) or not coexist any more.

[VeryAngryFelid]

This gets a bit OT, but it might be worth thinking about either making bows and crossbows more different (maybe xbows are weaker or much slower but always get piercing?) or not coexist any more.

This is current situation as far as I understand (except piercing part).

[Sprucery]

Rename the ranged weapons as firearms and make them recoil so that you lose HP when firing a weapon.

[Rast]

We agree on so much!

So make the changes that everyone agrees on (the ease of use stuff) and then let's see how imbalanced it is in practice.

There are a bunch of proposals in here:... They also mostly 4) don't address the problem that killing most monsters in the game by hitting repeatedly hitting tab from anywhere on the screen provides less interesting tactics than the other primary attack methods in the game.

Compared to "hit s until the monster is adjacent, then hit tab" and "use evokables until the tough monster is adjacent, then hit tab"?

Range and positioning are relevant with ranged characters also, but for avoiding damage rather than dealing it.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Counterarguments to Lasty's vision should strive to be completely devoid of ideas and just argue universal demerits of ammo scarcity. Will ammo scarcity bring undesired behaviour no matter what else changes about ranged weapons?

With ammo scarcity, ranged is invariably more complicated.
But I raise my eyebrow at "ammo scarcity makes every possible implementation of ranged weapons a lot more interesting".

Rename the ranged weapons as firearms and make them recoil so that you lose HP when firing a weapon.

This is the ranged model Makhleb follows. Firearms have worked in fantasy settings before. Always-mulch and goldification are easier to justify.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

* Almost all imagined implementations of ranged that aren't OP involve an irritating level of weapon-switching and thus demand a ranged slot.

Sometimes yes, but a given character can close the power gap between his melee and point-blank-ranged options, by training/enchanting/branding launchers, as well as by choosing to become a "ranged char" only when RNG drops good launchers.

killing most monsters in the game by hitting repeatedly hitting tab from anywhere on the screen provides less interesting tactics than the other primary attack methods in the game.

[unlimited ranged] allows you to [always] ignore range and positioning

Pressing tab whenever a monster is in view is bad tactics, whether you're playing melee or ranged. That you feel comfortable doing this with ranged only says that ranged is unbalanced. If melee were sufficiently OP, you could similarly always ignore range and positioning. As Rast says:

Range and positioning are relevant with ranged characters also, but for avoiding damage rather than dealing it.

except that for both ranged and melee, range and positioning are relevant only for "avoiding damage rather than dealing it".

I phrased it like this: "ranged encourages you to keep a (non-yaktaur/cyclops-type) monster in sight as long as possible, which is the opposite to what melee encourages, because monsters do less damage to you when they are not adjacent, while you do the same damage to them regardless of distance. Maximizing the time monsters spend non-adjacently in your LOS takes about the same kind and amount of skill as minimizing it."