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In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 07:08
by bcadren
Haste (Spell) Removal hinged pretty heavily on it being a "no-brainer" that virtually every character wants; this in effect is only true when significantly into extended, when casting a level 6 spell in medium/heavy armour is fairly cheap.

Diverting heavy experience into charms to be able to cast Haste early is actually a bit of a "noob-trap" for several reasons and I'll actually I'll innumerate them.

  1. Most obvious is that consumable haste is common enough that it's not worth the experience to get the spell until after consumables become scarce (especially if you ?Acq for Wands and ?Recharge a /Haste).
  2. Haste is powerful enough that you want it on all the time, yet you can't do this, the pre-existing control (contam) gave a pretty substantial cooldown between safe casts of Haste; lest you want the glowing EV penalty (and bad mutations if you aren't undead).
    • If you do divert to heavy charms to get haste very early this can be quite the trap as you could be weak without the effect you trained for (IE getting the spell online in late Lair and using in Spider).
  3. Haste is a high enough level spell that for non-pure casters; it's likely to require wearing a lighter armour than you'd otherwise want to.
  4. For pure casters (particularly conjurers that don't follow Vehumet), until high level and/or high Spellcasting skill, the 6 MP is a non-trivial cost; as it means one less cast of your conjurations/summons in dangerous situations before you have to channel or run away (and sources of reliable channeling are very rare).

In short, though Haste (spell) is a no-brainer in EXTENDED when the spell is fairly cheap to cast; before that point, it's simply not as the contamination cost, MP cost, skill cost and needing to switch to lighter armour/having lower AC are non-trivial costs for most the game.

TBH, I think we should have went the other way. The spell is balanced by being difficult to cast in heavy armour, making the characters that benefit most from it ("wizard" types that use support spells with melee) have trade offs to consider; while the consumables are pretty common for most the game and relatively low cost to use in dangerous situations. Consumables (wands) are fairly broken as it is due to ?Recharge being common enough that it they are practically limitless for reasonably powerful characters.

What I suggest is:

  • Reinstate the Haste spell.
  • Remove the Haste Wand.
  • Make the haste potion significantly less common.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 07:13
by duvessa
That is not why the Haste spell was removed.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 13:13
by VeryAngryFelid
bcadren wrote:What I suggest is:

  • Reinstate the Haste spell.
  • Remove the Haste Wand.
  • Make the haste potion significantly less common.


This works better if you replace first item with "Keep Haste as is i.e. non-existent".
It is very hard to balance game when players can cast Haste as often as they like (80-90 times in my 3 rune games). Contamination does not matter with enough patience as Haste itself gives you a way to escape from 99% fights and then you press 5 several times.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 13:18
by Hurkyl
VeryAngryFelid wrote:It is very hard to balance game when players can cast Haste as often as they like (80-90 times in my 3 rune games). Contamination does not matter with enough patience as Haste itself gives you a way to escape from 99% fights and then you press 5 several times.

No it's not; for starters you could just make enemies faster.

The difficulty in balancing is because some players can cast Haste as often as they like and others can't.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 13:25
by VeryAngryFelid
Hurkyl wrote:No it's not; just make enemies faster.


Wait, are you literally taking my words? Stop doing it ;) Not "as often as they like" of course, I'd like to be hasted from turn 1 until win but sadly Haste spell does not allow that. Buff the spell, it's bad
Spoiler: show
jk

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 13:59
by Psieye
Hurkyl wrote:The difficulty in balancing is because some players can cast Haste as often as they like and others can't.

There are two solutions to this stated difficulty. You must now argue why the solution you want is better than the solution currently implemented.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 18:30
by ydeve
Hurkyl wrote:No it's not; for starters you could just make enemies faster.


This is pretty similar to just removing haste in the first place.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Saturday, 15th October 2016, 20:41
by BabyRage
ydeve wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:No it's not; for starters you could just make enemies faster.


This is pretty similar to just removing haste in the first place.

Except not at all.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Sunday, 16th October 2016, 02:47
by Shard1697
Yes it is. If you balance haste by just making enemies faster, why have haste in the first place?

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Monday, 17th October 2016, 18:05
by jwoodward48ss
It's a nerf for everyone else.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Monday, 17th October 2016, 23:07
by Speleothing
Making enemies faster means you a) need to find a spellbook with Haste, b) need to invest into Charms in case you do, and c) cannot escape to stairs without it.


However, maybe Haste could be replaced by Haste Other, probably at a lower level?

People who would still want Haste Other:
*Summoners & Necromancers
*People with boxes of beasts or the Horn of Geryon
*Beogh, Yred, Mahkleb, Nemelex, Hep, Fedhas, Kiku, Gozag, Jiyva, & TSO worshippers
*People who would rather tank two rounds from an Orc Knight than one from an Ettin

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 00:50
by xbon
Shard1697 wrote:Yes it is. If you balance haste by just making enemies faster, why have haste in the first place?

I wholly agree with this, just makes the existence of the spell grindy, since you have to always be using it.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Friday, 21st October 2016, 00:27
by Speleothing
Also, there's the all-important question of 'when exactly are we assuming that all players will have found haste?"

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Wednesday, 26th October 2016, 13:09
by kuniqs
Difference between haste spell and haste wand/potion is that it's totally random whenever you get the second one in the first place. They don't generate that often, while spellbooks w' haste in them generate much more often, because they have other spells in them that aren't as broken as haste.

BTW. make contamination fade away with experience, like drain.

Re: In Defense of Haste

PostPosted: Wednesday, 26th October 2016, 13:39
by VeryAngryFelid
kuniqs wrote:Difference between haste spell and haste wand/potion is that it's totally random whenever you get the second one in the first place. They don't generate that often, while spellbooks w' haste in them generate much more often, because they have other spells in them that aren't as broken as haste.


I am not sure what you mean. Typically I have just 1 book with Haste in 3 rune game while I do have a few potions of haste even before first rune.

BTW. make contamination fade away with experience, like drain.


I think it should be both experience and time. Experience alone will make it possible to spam haste in XP-rich areas.

I am playing hellcrawl exclusively at the moment and I like how hard the game is without wand/spell of haste. Difference between weak and powerful combos increased and this is a good thing IMHO.