defense of hidden numbers

Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6353

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 06:35

Re: defense of hidden numbers

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Siegurt, I think other people addressed your points. No, there is no need to show everything calculation that goes through the game engine, just as there is no need to show the 3 dice that are cast for MR checks. I don't see why you felt the need to join the conversation and start talking about numbers no one asked for.

When someone says "let's stop hiding number so-and-so", responses like "we should really think about the numbers we want to reveal to players" are somehow put forward and treated as counter-argument, when their content doesn't even resemble a counter-argument. It is loose, directionless (a lot of modern discourse is similar, but we don't have to stoop to that level).

Can I get a concession that the things you are saying, Siegurt, are hurdles to (productive discussions about) showing numbers? Paragraph after paragraph of scaremongering, or numerophobiamongering - how are we brought any closer to showing meaningful numbers or whatever?

My point was that you didn't mention any numbers you wanted shown, much less why we should show them the OP is just a whiny condescending rant about how people argue in this forum, you don't make any productive suggestions at all, you just try to show why one argument that some people have made ("numbers are overload") isn't valid. In the context of someone actually *making that argument* you might have a point, but arguing against a way of arguing, particularly as a preemptive measure against an imaginary scapegoat, is at best, meaningless.

If someone *should happen to bring this up as an argument against showing a particular number* at some point in the future, it's perfectly reasonable to shoot the argument down, you could even post a link to this thread, but standing alone, the OP is arguing against nothing, it's just railing against some thing that someone might say (Or might have said)

My "paragraph after paragraph of scaremongering, or numerophobiamongering" was an attempt at looking for a common ground when trying to look at the sorts of numbers that people actually want to see. Of course no one wants to see "the random bonus percentage of base damage from strength that got added to this attack roll" (At least I hope not) But given a thread where there's no actual proposition, just what appears to me as a simple expression of frustration at the way the subject has been discussed, it's reasonable to try to look at how we want to have productive conversations for which numbers are or are not shown in the future.

I would much rather have a discussion about an actual reasoned suggestion for change than have a discussion about how we have discussions about a particular class of change suggestions, but you're the one who brought it up. (And of course now we're having a discussion about the discussion about the discussions, which is *a whole second level of pointless*)
Spoiler: show
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Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 07:31

Re: defense of hidden numbers

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:it is not that it is unpleasant, but rather, it is revealing of the lunacies upon which this design goal, and therefore the design itself, hinges.

Yes, this seems like a totally productive way to overcome "hurdles to productive discussions about showing numbers." Describe the view you disagree with as based on "lunacies." That seems likely to persuade dpeg et al. to change the game.

I've had enough of this discussion, personally, but for the record, I've participated in it enough that I won't be taking any mod actions w/r/t the thread or its participants.
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Shoals Surfer

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Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 08:14

Re: defense of hidden numbers

[quote="HardboiledGargoyle"]In anti-number rhetoric, it is the very precision of numbers that gets bashed.

oh looky, here's what happens when you use fine bars and omit numbers (feat. squinting):
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Dungeon Master

Posts: 1611

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 09:03

Re: defense of hidden numbers

Closing, since this no longer appears to be going anywhere constructive (and there are various recent threads about the merits of displaying or not displaying specific numbers).

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