The Tavern

At the moment, Te only getting temp-flight at level 7 means that you actually get all the benefits of flight with the extra burden of having to remember to manually press it until sometime after lair. I think this is pretty bad, and that unlike say, the perma-rmsl change, this will not actually significantly affect the balance of the game, and make playing Te much more fun.

Alternatively, you could add some sort of significant cost to it (I'm thinking berserk-level hunger).

Seems completely uncontroversial. If level 7 is too early for the speed boost to kick in, the upgrade can be applied at a higher level. Gameplay-wise, a spammable speed boost with no real cost is worse than one that is just always on.

Additionally, remove interaction between flight and rare enemy spells that you only see maybe a couple times in a whole game.

or give perma-flight immediately and let the EV bonus kick in at some higher XL

KoboldLord wrote:Additionally, remove interaction between flight and rare enemy spells that you only see maybe a couple times in a whole game.

what about the interaction between monster flight and a level 4 player spell

From my understanding the dev opinion of player airstrike is that it's also a bit dubious, design-wise(I may be wrong!)

I feel like considering how meaningless flight usually is(and therfore how rarely players use it), enemy airstike is basically just a "did you forget to turn off boots of flight?" check. Who's gonna quaff a flight potion in front of a Titan?
IMO, remove Airstike for both players and monsters, give Titans and Gastronok smiting or a smite-targeted spell.

Shard1697 wrote:From my understanding the dev opinion of player airstrike is that it's also a bit dubious, design-wise(I may be wrong!)

I feel like considering how meaningless flight usually is(and therfore how rarely players use it), enemy airstike is basically just a "did you forget to turn off boots of flight?" check. Who's gonna quaff a flight potion in front of a Titan?
IMO, remove Airstike for both players and monsters, give Titans and Gastronok smiting or a smite-targeted spell.

How about enemy shatter? Basically the same thing just the other way around. "Do you have a source of flight?" check.

Shard1697 wrote:From my understanding the dev opinion of player airstrike is that it's also a bit dubious, design-wise(I may be wrong!)

What's wrong with airstrike? By all means remove the interaction with flight but the spell is ok imo.

As to the OP: agreed.

Flight should never be a drawback. It should basically be a more interesting resistance, in that instead of just reducing damage against certain types of attacks, it should have other beneficial effects, like avoiding traps and terrain hazards.

Rast wrote:Flight should never be a drawback. It should basically be a more interesting resistance, in that instead of just reducing damage against certain types of attacks, it should have other beneficial effects, like avoiding traps and terrain hazards.

I am sure I will use ring of flight during autoexplore then. With force_more when the flight expires so I can evoke it again.

I disagree with OP, it is a huge buff for TeBe which I am playing at the moment.

Yeah, and all worn flight items should give perma-flight.

I like this idea. Supported.

Now if it doesn't go through you have no one but the devs to un-thank.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Rast wrote:Flight should never be a drawback. It should basically be a more interesting resistance, in that instead of just reducing damage against certain types of attacks, it should have other beneficial effects, like avoiding traps and terrain hazards.

I disagree with OP, it is a huge buff for TeBe which I am playing at the moment.

Why? I'm not giving Te any powers that they don't already have.

Arrhythmia wrote:Why? I'm not giving Te any powers that they don't already have.

Because activating flight costs a turn.

Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

yes, this is what I meant as huge buff. would you like to change swiftness to be instant also? I hope not.

ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

It doesn't anymore?

arandomperson12 wrote:
ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

It doesn't anymore?

No it doesn't. It used to be on a timer, now it stays on.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

yes, this is what I meant as huge buff. would you like to change swiftness to be instant also? I hope not.

Constantly on old-style swiftness is better than old-style swiftness on a timer for the exact reason that current rMsl is better than old rMsl.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

yes, this is what I meant as huge buff. would you like to change swiftness to be instant also? I hope not.

It would not make sense to make current swiftness permanent, because it has a significant drawback when it runs out. Prior to whenever swiftness was updated though, I would have absolutely supported making it permanent and increasing its spell level*.

*I would have supported increasing old-swiftness's spell level even if it didn't become permanent, because it was way too good.

I mean, they still get it at xl14 so I don't think it's a huge change powerwise, especially considering that they are a -20% HP species... Te are never gonna be OP, they might as well be a bit more convenient.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Why? I'm not giving Te any powers that they don't already have.

Because activating flight costs a turn.

Right, so the theoretical optimal player refreshes it whenever there is no danger.

Rast wrote:Right, so the theoretical optimal player refreshes it whenever there is no danger.

It has hunger cost. Notice how I mentioned that it is a huge buff to TeBe. I found ring of flight in my last game as TeBe so I evoked it even before XL 7, then I started activating racial ability and both ways prevented me from berserking sometimes.

Imo give Te permaflight and EV bonus from turn 0, and get rid of the stupid speed boost. EV or HP can be increased if that's too big of a nerf. Nobody thinks it would be a good idea to make gargoyles AC boost an active ability, so why is tengu's EV boost, other than that's the way it has always been? Airstrike could be removed/changed while we're at it, seems like the game is moving in that direction anyway.

hunger costs are the worst john

ydeve wrote:
arandomperson12 wrote:
ydeve wrote:Casting r/dMsl used to cost a turn as well.

It doesn't anymore?

No it doesn't. It used to be on a timer, now it stays on.

Just to clarify: casting r/dMsl still costs a turn; you just don't have to recast it very often.

Another clarification: Tengu actually get flight at XL5, not XL7. So presumably the proposal is that they should get permaflight at XL5.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Rast wrote:Right, so the theoretical optimal player refreshes it whenever there is no danger.

It has hunger cost. Notice how I mentioned that it is a huge buff to TeBe. I found ring of flight in my last game as TeBe so I evoked it even before XL 7, then I started activating racial ability and both ways prevented me from berserking sometimes.

How many people really care if the best background is buffed for the sake of better gameplay for all backgrounds?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:It has hunger cost. Notice how I mentioned that it is a huge buff to TeBe. I found ring of flight in my last game as TeBe so I evoked it even before XL 7, then I started activating racial ability and both ways prevented me from berserking sometimes.

Actually, you prevented yourself from berserking.

goodcoolguy wrote:Actually, you prevented yourself from berserking.

Actually, +2 EV are kind of useful on D1.

AngryFelid: did you have unused permafood? Would it have been possible to periodically eat permafood out of combat such that it was extremely unlikely that activating flight makes you too hungry to berserk?

If your reason for not doing this is the interface burden, well, all the more reason to get rid of Te's activated flight.

I had rations only, no fruits/pizza/beef so eating during fight was a bad idea.

I think that if we buff Te, we need to compensate it in some way. For example, remove EV boost before XL 14

I support this, and further support just making Tengu flight active at level 1 with no "off" switch. Thematically, it would be interesting to have a bird race with legs too stubby to walk on.

Why no "off" switch? If airstrike is removed/reworked/etc, there would be no reason to ever turn it off (I could be missing something but can't think of anything). And if it's not, it's a vulnerability Tengu have to work around.

Why XL1 instead of 5? A slight edge in survivability between XL1 and 4 is nice to have but not game-changing. We already have races that are as strong as a perma-flight tengu would be on D:1 and 2 (sometimes 3) and that's all we're really talking about because after that point, you can turn fly on as-is anyway.

Te is already one of the weaker species. There is absolutely no risk in just giving them the 2 ev or whatever at xl 7 that you give halflings for free on turn zero, rather than giving them some nonsense interface screw that people who can't think ahead far enough to eat before a fight mistakenly claim matters...

Te are bad, after this change, they're still bad, but less tedious.

The main intention here is a quality of life change, so I don't think a minor buff in power should even be considered.

This is a good idea, I'm surprised I haven't seen the post linking to a commit that has done this.

Arrhythmia wrote:you could add some sort of significant cost to it (I'm thinking berserk-level hunger).

This isn't a significant cost, just a significant annoyance.

archaeo wrote:This is a good idea, I'm surprised I haven't seen the post linking to a commit that has done this.

Arrhythmia wrote:you could add some sort of significant cost to it (I'm thinking berserk-level hunger).

This isn't a significant cost, just a significant annoyance.

Or exhaustion, whatever keeps the children from berserking after school, I don't know.

Give tengu perma flight at XL1.

Remove drawbacks of flight (just airstrike I think).

Remove the tengu flight bonuses (why should flying be so much better for them than it is for other races?)

Possibly add a bonus to flight, but it has to apply to any race and to monsters. For example, +3 EV against melee attacks by non-flying creatures.

Since all this adds up to a tengu nerf, compensate by bumping their HP up to -1 instead of -2.

Rast wrote:For example, +3 EV against melee attacks by non-flying creatures.

I think it would be much simpler and easier to understand to just have a plain EV boost, since it doesn't only apply to some enemies and thus can show up on your EV number.

In other words, merge potions of Agility and potions of Flight.

Te is already bad enough that it could use a small buff anyway.

How about this: Tengu get a passive speed bonus, and 'contextual' flight.

This means they will switch to flying in any cases that matter. I.e. when stepping into terrain that would affect them negatively, +Fly is instantly turned on (and by extension, shaft/trap avoidance or mitigation). After all, they're the masters of flight so they should use it more skillfully than other races. The speed bonus is present regardless.

This way the interaction with Airstrike could remain for the time being.

Does frost breath still knock you back if you're flying? If so, that should be removed too, in addition to airstrike's anti-flying bonus.

The Tavern

Give Te perma-flight at level 7

Give Te perma-flight at level 7

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