Spiny is (way)too strong, Foul Stench is too weak

[Shard1697]

In a recent game(still ongoing, actually) I had the luck of getting both Spiny and Foul Stench mutations first thing.

  Code:

 449 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in sharp spines. [demonic ancestry]
 449 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 25/25 MP: 2/2
 646 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You are immune to rotting. [demonic ancestry]
...
 2414 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You may emit foul miasma when damaged in melee. [demonic ancestry]
...
 6191 | D:7      | Gained mutation: You are mostly covered in sharp spines. [demonic ancestry]

Both of which are "revenge on damage" mutations. So I thought, ok, I'll go axes and play recklessly, walk into packs of enemies, etc. This'll be fun.

But what I discover as a result of getting these mutations at the same time is that, even when I've gotten 2 levels of Foul Stench while Spiny is still level 1, Spiny is still doing a whole lot more(and basically easily carrying me through the earlygame, despite my stupid play). And when they're both level 2, Spiny absolutely kicks the shit out of Foul Stench.
"But miasma is strong, what do you mean?"
Well, I mean both that Spiny is so strong and Foul Stench activates so rarely that I am standing still next to packs of enemies, letting them hit me repeatedly until spiny kills them(without worry!), and Foul Stench still basically never goes off.






There's 2 issues here:

• Spiny is so powerful that it's made everything easy, from earlygame through lair, basically all by itself. (including uniques and the lair 6 endvault enemies much of those screenshots are of.(ps: spriggan riders hit slightly harder than death yaks.) killed grinder basically by randomly quaffing potions at him.)
• Foul Stench's chances of spawning miasma are so bad that even when I'm literally not attacking at all, stretching out fights much, much longer than they would normally be, I still rarely see it do anything worthwhile at all. If I am actually playing it might as well not exist. And that's when I've gotten lucky enough to get 2 levels of the mutation quickly, if you just get the first level it's actually straight up completely functionally worthless.

I have a decently tanky character, but not a super tanky one-AC was at 25-28 or so throughout lair. Missing a couple of armor body slots due to horns and hooves. No AC mutation, +4 chain mail or something like that.
Yet I literally just stand still and everything kills itself on me. If I actually bother to attack, every fight is trivial.

It is(and I'm not just saying this for the sake of the argument I'm making here)very boring.

[Sar]

Interesting, I remember when spiny was considered to be one of the worst Ds muts ever. It was buffed several times since then, of course. Don't have a problem with it being good myself.

AC was at 25-28 or so throughout lair

That's an enormous amount of AC for a Lair char in my experience.

[Shard1697]

I usually expect to have around 25-30 AC in lair, especially as Ds who usually get +AC scales. Or as Hill Orc, who has better armor apt+guaranteed fee bodyslots.
And either way, Spiny carried me through the earlygame where I didn't have good AC(was wearing +0 ring mail for a while).

I was a strong proponent of buffing Spiny back when it was trash(lowered by armor encumbrance but also relying upon getting hit to work... eurgh), but where it is now I really do feel like it's too powerful. If you get it early you will not die unless you do something very stupid.

[duvessa]

People are so familiar with the old crappy versions of spiny, pbd, and pbp that they forget how amazing several other tier 2 Ds mutations already were. Nightstalker is the best or second best mutation in the game (after fast movement), magic shield is basically robust, demonic guardian 2+ annihilates things whenever it triggers. I don't think spiny or pbd are as good as these (maybe they're as good as demonic guardian since demonic guardian is "unreliable" and not very good at level 1), I'm not even convinced that spiny or pbd is as good as pbp.

Regardless, I do not think that melee retaliation is such a deep mechanic that it deserves THREE demonspawn mutations, and now minotaurs and riposte too. I'd suggest that only one of the three Ds mutations should exist.

[Sar]

I disagree, I think farting slow+damage clouds occasionally and consistent damage are different enough. Maybe a char should only get one of those, though?

[Midn8]

I think the main point of miasma is that it slows and that literally no monster vulnerable to its effects will enter it if not allready in a cloud. So its more of an escape option than offence.

[Shard1697]

It's a very unreliable escape option if so.

[chequers]

I agree there's no space for three thorns-aura-type things. If one had to go I'd suggest spiny, because it's the most boring.

Foul stench takes a long time to affect monsters (low proc rate, then wait a turn for the cloud to affect the monster), so it's not reliable, but the effect over the long term is vaguely useful in helping to clear things you aren't paying attention to. Powered by Pain is quite fun but has bad proc rate logic too -- if it triggered in a more consistent way I think people would value it a lot higher.