New hosted branch: haste reform


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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 12:29

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Sprucery wrote:It doesn't, of course. Desperate haste guarantees* that the first of such situations is survivable. The first one is probably the most dangerous one, too. So this small step is actually quite a big step towards that direction.

* Of course it doesn't exactly guarantee that, but you get the idea.


How does it guarantee? For the record my last character evoked a wand of hasting as last action and that's at 273 max HP. Now try to do that on early dungeon when you are fighting first goblin with weapon and suddenly lose more than 50% HP. Early dungeon is full of monsters who can kill PC in 2 shots, one haste per 3 XL does not help much (though I agree it should be moved to XL 10 or so).
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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 12:40

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

You can't seriously compare slowness in orb chamber with the first dangerous situation in the game.

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 13:33

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Yes, I can.
Desperate haste can help vs first jackals pack or adder on D1 and this is good because it reduces number of unavoidable deaths. Desperate haste does not help much to recover from mistakes when you overestimated a monster and lost 50% HP in one attack while still adjacent to it. If you are smart and use it before a normal speed monster is adjacent, then you don't need desperate haste, you can just run away.
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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 23:00

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Sprucery wrote:So you just get a free pass from the first of such situations. Not good imo.

Agree. But it's a net benefit if it means that the difficulty can be cranked up so that you typically get at least two more interesting situations.

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Post Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 11:53

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

  Code:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5b639dcbc964aa5ee4ea8bdfc27790d1305c2fb2
Increase the timeout of Desperate Haste

It's now slightly more than twice as long, measured in raw XP.


  Code:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6bceca2659881dfcce8c5db35ef47ab4113f6c31
Reduce spawn rate of haste potions

Reduced weight from 63 (approx same as might) to 35 (approx same as berserk
rage). The extra weight was assigned to potions of degeneration to avoid
buffing the player.

Between this and the previous commit, this should result in a significant
reduction of haste availability, and increased emphasis on desperate haste
as a haste source.

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Post Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 23:58

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Lasty wrote:
  Code:
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5b639dcbc964aa5ee4ea8bdfc27790d1305c2fb2
Increase the timeout of Desperate Haste

It's now slightly more than twice as long, measured in raw XP.

Can someone give me an idea of how much XP this is? At some point, a feature that gets used as often per game as a consumable may as well just be left a consumable, esp. given that an innate player ability has an effect on the earlygame, however modest it may be.

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 17:31

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Just gave it a spin, not full games. Some notes and impressions:

I got about 3 uses of haste in 10 or 11 levels iirc, maybe could have gotten another if I knew how to time it out better.

NaFi, flail. I paid attention but didn't play super carefully — intentionally played it a little bit loose and fast. Desperate haste got me out of jams that definitely should have killed me, and could probably have been avoided with very careful tactics. Got me to Lair and full piety with Ru, at which point I didn't really need haste but still had it all the same. So for this character desperate haste made a fairly challenging background + species feel more like a regular start (basically made naga feel like not-quite-naga), with okay but not great play on my part. Quit character after completing Lair. [Note: I think sacrifice experience delayed getting desperate haste, not sure if that is intentional, might want to note that in description of sacrifice experience, if so.]

MiFi, long sword. Intentionally played with god-awful tactics. Charged in, didn't break up packs, didn't retreat into corridors, etc. Didn't retreat to corridors, or use stairs thoughtfully. Only enemy I ran from was a player ghost that obviously outclassed me (DrSu, yikes). Did not identify or use any consumables aside from starting potion of might (plus another one or maybe two I found subsequently). Didn't get any crazy good items, just tabbed and used desperate haste. Three (iirc) uses of that plus the pots of might were enough to avoid having to use any other consumables, didn't really miss them too bad. I also didn't bother worshipping a god. Quit on D12. Had another use of desperate haste when I quit.

Now, I did use desperate haste intelligently (perhaps more tactfully than a new player could) but it seemed clear to me nonetheless that this feature overwhelms other tactics and items/consumables you would have to use.

I was also bothered by the fact that un-stockability of desperate haste at least seemed to make it optimal to play selectively in a somewhat reckless way, timed with getting desperate haste applications, but maybe that's just me. (Of course it would be even more problematic if you could stockpile it, for other reasons though.)

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 20:55

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Thanks for posting your experiences, and into! From your description, it sounds like this ability is trivializing the game and not introducing anything interesting. Was this on the branch before the nerf patches I put up above, or after?

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 22:19

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Lasty wrote:Thanks for posting your experiences, and into! From your description, it sounds like this ability is trivializing the game and not introducing anything interesting. Was this on the branch before the nerf patches I put up above, or after?


It was earlier today, so I imagine it was after the nerf. I seemed to get the desperate haste recharged somewhere between 2 and 3 character levels, can't be more exact I'm afraid.

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 22:22

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

and into wrote:Now, I did use desperate haste intelligently (perhaps more tactfully than a new player could) but it seemed clear to me nonetheless that this feature overwhelms other tactics and items/consumables you would have to use.

Would your consumables have gotten you out of those same jams? With the MiFi, how sure are that DH is the issue, and not just the fact Minotaurs are rather forgiving?

---

Is it true that the change to haste was the only change in the branch; in particular, the change has not been paired with making the early game less forgiving?

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Post Thursday, 29th September 2016, 22:36

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Hurkyl wrote:
and into wrote:Now, I did use desperate haste intelligently (perhaps more tactfully than a new player could) but it seemed clear to me nonetheless that this feature overwhelms other tactics and items/consumables you would have to use.

Would your consumables have gotten you out of those same jams? With the MiFi, how sure are that DH is the issue, and not just the fact Minotaurs are rather forgiving?


MiFi is definitely forgiving, but my intention with that game was to see if desperate haste could functionally overwhelm other consumable use, even with bad tactics, on a good starting combo. Felt a bit like having Trog berserk on top of a complete non-Be starting set, you just couldn't use the haste too frequently of course. Still, that was enough. I didn't bother identifying (almost all) of my consumables up until D12. Did not have god abilities or exceptional items. I believe I had scimitar, shield, chain armor, gloves, boots, +1 MR cloak from Yiuf (unenchanted if not otherwise specified). I had lots of scrolls and potions, more than average, but I didn't use any except !might. When I quit !resistance was also IDed, not sure if I saw an enemy use it (do enemies drink !resist?), or if I mis-typed when trying to quaff the might pot at some point.

Is it true that the change to haste was the only change in the branch; in particular, the change has not been paired with making the early game less forgiving?


No idea. It is possible, but it did seem normal — early orc packs with wizards and priests, adders, some centaurs, iirc. I did not have crazy bad luck with enemies (early spriggan meph-ghost or something) but it was not unusually easy either. That's just my perception though, could be wrong.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 08:42

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

and into wrote:(do enemies drink !resist?)

Yeah, they do. I had one game where the only !resist was used by a monster, so I had it identified, but not a a single one to use all game.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:03

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

I didn't change anything else to make it more forgiving. I'll have to check on the server to see if it's automatically pulling branch updates. The intention was to have the ability recharge every 5-ish levels rather than every 3-ish (in the latest patch). I think I may also need to reevaluate how I calculate the XP requirement to avoid certain breakpoints.

and into, on the MiFi, how many uses of desperate haste did you have total? I should add logging around that, as was suggested earlier.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:13

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Lasty wrote:and into, on the MiFi, how many uses of desperate haste did you have total? I should add logging around that, as was suggested earlier.


Three uses, and I believe it had recharged just before I quit, so I had a fourth. I believe I quit at level 13, so perhaps the game I played was the earlier patch after all. I'll give my patented "sloppily played MiFi" method another go later tonight and report back with the findings. I'll try another challenging start too, for comparison.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 17:45

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

and into wrote:
Lasty wrote:and into, on the MiFi, how many uses of desperate haste did you have total? I should add logging around that, as was suggested earlier.


Three uses, and I believe it had recharged just before I quit, so I had a fourth. I believe I quit at level 13, so perhaps the game I played was the earlier patch after all. I'll give my patented "sloppily played MiFi" method another go later tonight and report back with the findings. I'll try another challenging start too, for comparison.

Before you try it out, let me make sure the server has the most recent copy, please.

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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 12:39

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

The server now has the most recent version. Thanks for your patience!

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 01:54

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

I added the suggestion above, logging when the ability is used and when it becomes available again. In the process, I noticed that my last update to the XP had an error that _reduced_ the delay instead of increasing it. I've fixed that too, and rebuilt the server.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 01:34

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

Personaly I would not mind an easier D:1. Usually you don't have anything to use on D:1 so having to fight a giant geko is just a huge dice roll, no skill at all. With this ability you can at least use your skill of knowing that this would be a good time to haste rather than just dying.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:39

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

tabstorm wrote:It's still a player buff in the late 3-rune game. Haste wands aren't that common, and most characters without high base Int are not going to be learning spellhaste until they are well into the win-more stage, if at all. It is only really a nerf for Hell/Pan.


Wait... what!??!

In the various 'remove haste' and 'haste removed' threads, we have the knowledgable tavern folk all agreeing with one another that there are more than enough haste potions in the game to haste every single time you are in a dangerous situation that calls for it. Now, in this thread, there aren't enough haste charges to do that, so this once every 3 xl ability (That's 9 uses for the entire game people) is now giving players a late game buff?

Come on. There cannot be simultaneously too much and not enough of something. Which is it?

I personally really like this idea, because it lets you have more crazy situations happen without dramatically increasing unavoidable deaths. This means you can actually increase the danger level of much of the game, making it more interesting! Removing haste wands at the same time makes perfect sense, and I suppose you could consider making the potion rarer, although you'd probably need more data first.

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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:44

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

What about making the ability work until XL 15 only? Or at least make it unusable in Zot and during orb run?
Hellcrawl does not have wand of hasting either and it made Zot and orb run pretty exciting.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 20:50

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

dowan wrote:
tabstorm wrote:It's still a player buff in the late 3-rune game. Haste wands aren't that common, and most characters without high base Int are not going to be learning spellhaste until they are well into the win-more stage, if at all. It is only really a nerf for Hell/Pan.


Wait... what!??!

In the various 'remove haste' and 'haste removed' threads, we have the knowledgable tavern folk all agreeing with one another that there are more than enough haste potions in the game to haste every single time you are in a dangerous situation that calls for it. Now, in this thread, there aren't enough haste charges to do that, so this once every 3 xl ability (That's 9 uses for the entire game people) is now giving players a late game buff?

Come on. There cannot be simultaneously too much and not enough of something. Which is it?
No knowledgeable player is claiming there's not enough haste. Humans have more than enough HP to win easily, but deep dwarves are still even better.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 22:37

Re: New hosted branch: haste reform

dowan wrote:
tabstorm wrote:It's still a player buff in the late 3-rune game. Haste wands aren't that common, and most characters without high base Int are not going to be learning spellhaste until they are well into the win-more stage, if at all. It is only really a nerf for Hell/Pan.


Wait... what!??!

In the various 'remove haste' and 'haste removed' threads, we have the knowledgable tavern folk all agreeing with one another that there are more than enough haste potions in the game to haste every single time you are in a dangerous situation that calls for it. Now, in this thread, there aren't enough haste charges to do that, so this once every 3 xl ability (That's 9 uses for the entire game people) is now giving players a late game buff?

Come on. There cannot be simultaneously too much and not enough of something. Which is it?

I personally really like this idea, because it lets you have more crazy situations happen without dramatically increasing unavoidable deaths. This means you can actually increase the danger level of much of the game, making it more interesting! Removing haste wands at the same time makes perfect sense, and I suppose you could consider making the potion rarer, although you'd probably need more data first.


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