The Tavern

This is actually not extreme, the entire purpose of maces is to deal with armour since swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour ( don't believe me just look it up). The only thing maces and flails have going for it is that it doesn't chop off hydra heads and there's so many ways around this and the other properties of the other weapon classes are so good that maces aren't equal to them at all. This isn't my idea but I thought I would just make a topic about it specifically. Creating an algorithm which increases the amount of AC you can remove from an enemy and giving it a 33% chance to activate sounds like a good buff that can be easily balanced by capping how much AC you can strip

CypherZel wrote:swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour

just halfsword it

Sar wrote:
CypherZel wrote:swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour

just halfsword it

Nah fuck that just end him rightfully

Heavy swords are effective against armour, because they should be used like maces there.

Instead of giving maces and flails a property that is about to be introduced into the game through a brand anyways, why not have it give a small chance to daze the enemy by giving them a concussion upon a well-aimed blow, making them confused for 2-3 turns? I think that'd be a more interesting and noticeable effect.

Though on the other hand, I'm also fine with maces as "the one weapon class that does nothing special aside from just doing good damage and doing it consistently".

That brand is for a specific unrand

Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.

Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.

Then the problem will remain of there being no reason for there to be so many of them besides one types top tier is a deamon weapon and the other types top tier is a high damage low accuracy weapon. Why not give both types a flavour and make is so you would actually want to have a flail and a mace in the same build

I'm a little confused as to what you're saying; is it that having both eveningstars and demonwhips are a problem? If so, why is it a problem, and why isn't it a problem shared by LB (with demon blades and double blades)?

e: And how is it solved by adding a gimmick to M&F?

Arrhythmia wrote:I'm a little confused as to what you're saying; is it that having both eveningstars and demonwhips are a problem? If so, why is it a problem, and why isn't it a problem shared by LB (with demon blades and double blades)?

e: And how is it solved by adding a gimmick to M&F?

It isn't a problem, but I'm saying that tit can give each type their own trait and give the weapon set more flavour instead of if being a huge set of weapons and the only thing going for it is that it doesn't lop hydra heads

CypherZel wrote:swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour ( don't believe me just look it up).

I think I've read somewhere that some swords could be held by the blade and used as blunt weapons by hitting with handle. Please implement this in Crawl.

BabyRage wrote:
CypherZel wrote:swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour ( don't believe me just look it up).

I think I've read somewhere that some swords could be held by the blade and used as blunt weapons by hitting with handle. Please implement this in Crawl.

Like sar said, half swording

Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.

This is essentially what "remove AC" would be anyways, just less fiddly and gimmicky.

I am in favor of maces being simple and good. (note: maces are already simple and good)

CypherZel wrote:
BabyRage wrote:
CypherZel wrote:swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour ( don't believe me just look it up).

I think I've read somewhere that some swords could be held by the blade and used as blunt weapons by hitting with handle. Please implement this in Crawl.

Like sar said, half swording

No, half swording is holding further down the blade for additional leverage/accuracy in guiding the point. Sort of like how you hold a polearm.
Using the crossguard/handle of the sword as a bludgeon is called "mordhau", which is german that literally translates to "murder-stroke".

You can see both in this image(mordhau left, half swording right):

Shard1697 wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.
This is essentially what "remove AC" would be anyways, just less fiddly and gimmicky.

I am in favor of maces being simple and good. (note: maces are already simple and good)
CypherZel wrote:
BabyRage wrote:[quote="CypherZel"]swords are mostly ineffective against heavy armour ( don't believe me just look it up).

I think I've read somewhere that some swords could be held by the blade and used as blunt weapons by hitting with handle. Please implement this in Crawl.

Like sar said, half swording

No, half swording is holding further down the blade for additional leverage/accuracy in guiding the point. Sort of like how you hold a polearm.
Using the crossguard/handle of the sword as a bludgeon is called "mordhau", which is german that literally translates to "murder-stroke".

You can see both in this image(mordhau left, half swording right):

[/quote]

Ah cool, thought they were both half swording but the murder stroke was a type of half swording

Also maces and flails need some umph

we'll change the text the game prints when you hit monsters with them

Code:: _With a resounding crunch, you crush the goblin into a fine paste, spilling its innards everywhere. Its blood spatters on your face!!!

CanOfWorms wrote:we'll change the text the game prints when you hit monsters with them
Code:
_With a resounding crunch, you crush the goblin into a fine paste, spilling its innards everywhere. Its blood spatters on your face!!!

Il make sure to update the Dev hitlist for that one

Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.

I like it. 'Coding' should be quite simple

Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.

The problem here is riposte is "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick" in disguise. So maces and long blades still don't have real differentiation.

duvessa wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Alternatively: why not leave them as "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick"? That seems like a perfectly fine niche for M&F to occupy IMO.
The problem here is riposte is "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick" in disguise. So maces and long blades still don't have real differentiation.

Riposte shouldn't be a thing anyways though

duvessa wrote:The problem here is riposte is "better damage than other weapons but no gimmick" in disguise. So maces and long blades still don't have real differentiation.

Better damage against enemies that physically attack you in adjacency when you have moderate-to-high EV, yes, but against every other type of attack?

Maces don't hit monsters that aren't adjacent, either.

Mace of Torment does.

Spoiler: show

Riposte doesn't work on OOF therefore maces are better than swords.

The Tavern

Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid

Re: Make maces % flails have the remove AC property of acid