Now that the Infestation spell exists...

[Shard1697]

...replace enemy necromancer's Bind Souls with a monster version of Infestation(gives monsters buff which makes them burst into hostile death scarabs upon death), because monsters turning into Simulacra/Spectral things on death isn't scary(they're basically always free XP) but monsters releasing death scarabs would be, because they're fast(so you can't just walk away) and hit hard. Necromancers would probably have to spawn a bit deeper as a result, but I think it'd be worth it.

Alternatively, make Crypt a bit harder by adding "infested" living monsters, AKA monsters that are permanently infested.

[minstrel]

Just gut feel based on my experiences in Tomb with death scarabs, but I don't think that would be scary. It would be rage-quit level terrifying. Tanky types might do ok, but a caster spawning multiple scarabs with one spell could effectively suicide.

With recent changes encouraging a more aggressive playstyle (cleaving, Uskayaw come to mind), I think this pushes back the other way. I'd be running into the nearest corridor the second a necromancer came into view behind even a couple weak allies.

I think the general idea is good though. The current spectral things are more of a nuisance than anything and I'd support replacing them with...something. Maybe not even necessarily a spawn-on-death mechanic, but something.

And like I said, gut feel based on personal experience. With your suggestion of moving necros further down in the dungeon/Depths, maybe they're an appropriate challenge then.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I think it might be better as random mix of simulacra/spectral things/death scarabs. Death scarabs are more dangerous to characters with low AC, simulacra are more dangerous to characters with low EV and lack of rC+, spectral deep elf annihilators are dangerous to everyone.

[infinitevox]

Are Death Scarabs actually scary? I've always considered them popcorn...

[duvessa]

The intended design of necromancers is just bad. If there are several monsters around, the player is already incentivized to split them apart and fight them one at a time. There's no need to have a monster that exists solely to encourage that further. Furthermore, even if you don't think that bad niche is bad, it's already filled by torpor snails.

[bcadren]

Are Death Scarabs actually scary? I've always considered them popcorn...

  Code:

death scarab (B) | Spd: 30 | HD: 8 | HP: 26-39 | AC/EV: 7/14 | Dam: 33(scarab) | undead, evil, unbreathing | Res: magic(60), poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | Chunks: noxious | XP: 875 | Sz: little | Int: animal.

  Code:

komodo dragon (l) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | HP: 36-52 | AC/EV: 7/8 | Dam: 34 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40), drown | XP: 360 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

They hit at similar power to Komodo Dragons but are 3 times as fast (but they are also batty), their melee slows the player and is vampiric (heals them)...so kinda; in large amounts, the slowing effect is worse than melee unless you're low AC.

[Leszczynek]

Are Death Scarabs actually scary? I've always considered them popcorn...

I've been running some 15 rune ogres recently and death scarabs are the most dangerous opponents in Tomb, worse than greater mummies. Of course not when you compare one greater mummy to one death scarab, but the latter always come in packs. At least they go down to Cleansing Flame easily.

[goodcoolguy]

As noted above, making necromancers spawn different things when you kill stuff is a bad idea. The effect wears off and even if it didn't, the player is in complete control of when these extra monsters spawn. The player just splits them up using stairs or whatever else and fights them one at a time, so that they pose absolutely no threat. Any time you hand this much control over when a monster ability triggers to the player, it is going to be a failure.

I think the problem is an attitude that "tabbing" is bad and that a good monster would stop players from "just tabbing." If the correct behavior is something ridiculous and boring, as described above, the effect is purely to make the game more annoying, not difficult. You gotta get past the idea that people who are playing certain kinds of characters are just being sloppy. That's really not the problem and you're never going to get anywhere thinking that's what's going on.

[minstrel]

As an alternative for replacing the spectral things, what about a negative energy or miasma version of inner flame? Or something using the inner flame variant in Thunderdome, where the kobolds rush up and blow themselves up, again themed to either explode with negative energy or miasma clouds and cast by the necromancer on nearby skeletons/zombies? Or maybe LRD type skeleton explosions if rN and undead make this too trivial - that has its own downside of potentially killing the necromancer's allies - but then again, inner-LRD chain-reactions might be quite nasty and scary.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't see why monsters who make you split packs are bad. Are monsters who can be killed anywhere better?

Torpor snail, Entropy weaver, Moth of wrath etc. make you split packs and they are among the best monsters in the game IMHO. We need more support monsters like that, not less.

If luring Necromancer to an area without corpses is a problem, just give it a dangerous attack and make it fast.

[lethediver]

Did necromancy really need another summon? You couldnt have made this a VM spell?

Im losing faith in this generation of roguelike developers.

[duvessa]

Im losing faith in this generation of roguelike developers.

i am a gentleman, i listen to queen and wear a hat. who else was born in the wrong generation like me???

[Shard1697]

why would this be a poison spell

[jwoodward48ss]

Lethediver, that is irrelevant to this discussion. This is about giving ENEMY necromancers a new spell. I personally think that Infestation is fine - isn't Necromancy a blend of summon-like spells dependent on death, attack spells mostly only useful against natural creatures, and charms/buffs? Most high-level necromancy spells are the latter two (only animate skeleton, animate read, death channel, haunt, and infestation make allies IIRC). Control undead also sort of counts as one of these. Charms etc. include corpse rot, sublimation of blood, regeneration, vampiric draining, cigotuvi's embrace, excruciating wounds, revivication, and death's door. And necromutation I guess. Attack spells include pain, agony, bolt of draining, and dispel undead. That's five, nine, and four for summon, charms, and attack spells. Approximately one quarter, half, and a quarter.

[Shard1697]

Corpse rot and vampiric draining aren't really 'charm' type spells, one's damage+slow and the other is damage+lifesteal. I guess you could sorta say they're in between direct damage and hex-type stuff, either way they should go in your attack spells category.

[jwoodward48ss]

That makes five, seven, six. Sounds fine.