Draining weapon

[ledtim]

Draining brand doesn't seem to be good enough compared to other brands to justify the exp reduction. Also, currently it's effect is not obvious and there really should be a warning that it reduces exp gained in the description. Testing in wizmode fsim damage simulator:

+0 short sword against ogre, effective damage at skill levels 0; 13; 27
Flame: 2.86; 7.71; 11.15
Vorpal: 2.65; 7.22; 10.28
Draining: 2.57; 6.98; 10.19

And damage is the thing that matters in most situations. The HD reduction with draining doesn't happen often and is not really noticeable even if it does, and max HP reduction only matters if you let the enemy regenerate to full for some reason. I suppose it could be useful hit-and-run, but if you really can't kill a monster in one try, the prudent thing is to leave it off for later, and even if you manage to drain it down, the exp reward is greatly reduced.

For this mediocre damage, you lose exp depending on how many times the draining went off, reducing the enemy's HD and max HP, two primary factors that determine enemy exp worth. If you are using a heavy beefy weapon that does a lot of damage per hit and you have high weapon skill, you'll lose less exp since it'll take less hits to kill the enemy. Something like +0 knife of draining will lose you like 80% of exp with low skill levels. There doesn't seem to be any cap on the experience drained, since it is possible to get 1 exp after killing a monster by making their HD reach 0 (though you have to really try to achieve this). I tried in wizmode killing several Margeries with a +0 katana of draining at 27 skill, and the exp loss worked out to about 35%. Also tried killing several Sigmunds, which died on one or two hits each, and ended up with about 10% exp loss.

And in game flavor-wise, I don't know why draining makes the character gain not as much experience. It's as if draining brand gives the character ADD. It's odd, because the more trouble the character has with the enemy (taking more hits to kill him, maybe running away and come back to finish him later), the less experience he obtains.

[pratamawirya]

So... if the brand does not reduce XP, will it be better? I don't think the brand will be overpowered, but I'm not really sure.

[Grimm]

It's more intended to torture players I think, as getting drained sucks hippopotamus balls.

[Bim]

Yeah as a player torture it's up there with getting a horribly deformed body and Blurry vision (BLINKKKK!!! BLINKKK!!!!!!!!!)
It could be better if it didn't reduce XP, or did more damage as I tend to avoid them if I can find any other brand/well enchanted weapon, as at the earlier stages (before an unrandart or whatever) I need the XP more than a few good kills.

[snow]

I can see draining changing anyway with the removal of experience pools. Hopefully with pools gone only your experience level will be drained making draining attacks almost bearable.

[pratamawirya]

I can see draining changing anyway with the removal of experience pools. Hopefully with pools gone only your experience level will be drained making draining attacks almost bearable.

...But it might also reduce your skill levels

[galehar]

It has been suggested to make it drain skill points, but only temporarily. So it would have a stronger tactical effect, without the long term annoyance of having it really reduce your skills.

[Bim]

Really like the idea of it draining your skills in combat, especially now heroism boosts them. I've always found it needlessly annoying that it permadrains you.
Possibly it would need a cap though, as going down 4 levels in axes, when you've only got 8 levels in axes is quite a big jump. How would it work on monsters?

[Galefury]

Most monster skills depend on HD (to hit, spell damage, spot check, etc., but not attack damage and speed), so the current effect of lowering HD could still work. Making it stronger and temporary without affecting exp might actually make people use the brand! It would be great defensively for dodgers and shield users, but not very interesting for armored fighters.

I also love the idea of draining causing some sort of anti-heroism effect. Skill drain will not only screw with your melee capabilities but also disable some spells, and by doing so will shut down many escape options. So a cap of for example half your skill level (separate for each skill, affects specialists and generalists similarly, no reduction to 0 possible) or monster HD/2 skill levels (will completely shut down low skills) should be considered to not completely lock people into a fight they cannot win. Extra draining past the cap can be converted to longer duration. That way skills would get very severely limited, but high skills (the main focus of the character) could still be used somewhat reliably. Alternatively a cap tied to rN would work very well (in addition to rN reducing damage and drain amount from each attack). For each level of rN draining effect could reduced by 1/3 and maximum skill drain reduced by 1/3 of skill level. So no cap at no rN, maximum reduction to 1/3 of skill level for rN, 2/3 for rN++ and no draining at all for rN+++.

Another thing that needs to be considered is how to handle fighting. By lowering fighting draining will lower your max HP. Should current HP stay the same or be lowered to keep the previous proportion of max HP? Same goes for monster HP, with a more noticeable HD reduction this might actually be relevant.

[galehar]

Another thing that needs to be considered is how to handle fighting. By lowering fighting draining will lower your max HP. Should current HP stay the same or be lowered to keep the previous proportion of max HP? Same goes for monster HP, with a more noticeable HD reduction this might actually be relevant.

I really like this idea too. I'm not sure about the details yet, what you suggested sounds pretty good. No worry on the implementation, the drained skills will work exactly like the boosted ones, or like Ashenzari's wrath. HP and spell slots are not affected by the modified skills, they depend only on the base stats. Same for acquirement, and a bunch of other special cases where it's better to consider the base skill level than the temporarily modified one (whether up or down).

To compensate for the stronger tactical effect, we might reduce or removed the strategical one (drained XP). I'm thinking of having half the drained XP a permanent loss, and the other half regenerates just like skills.

By the way, regeneration occurs only by gaining more XP, you can't just "wait it out". Basically, we keep track of the amount of drain skill points (or XP), and whenever you gain some, the gain is doubled and the draining counter updated accordingly.

[smock]

I know that draining doesn't need a boost, but it would be fun if hitting with a draining weapon temporarily increased the user's own skills -- for players and monsters alike.

Not sure if it would be fun, as players could kite a few goblins toward a stone giant, kills the goblins and then wreck the stone giant.

Anyway, I think it's nice flavor.

[XuaXua]

Please do not single out Deep Dwarves as being unable to regenerate skills.

[Zuboki]

What about stat drain? In the same way that a shadow hitting you has a chance to drain a point of Strength, give a player using a weapon of draining a small chance to drain 1d2 points of any of the three stats- Perhaps 5% per hit for each stat, reduced to 1% if the monster has rN+ and no chance beyond that. The effect of draining a stat from a monster could be to slightly lower its damage for Str, its effective HD for spells for Int, and its to-hit and EV for Dex. The player would gain a point in the stat drained, which wears off at the same rate stat losses due to sickness wear off. So you wouldn't reach Chei levels of base stat buffing, but you could count on a few spare points here and there, especially if you had a dagger or other low-damage high attack speed weapon. Perhaps 2-handed weapons of draining could drain 1d3 points, to balance this out?

And of course, this works the opposite direction on the players, draining their stats and boosting the monster's capabilities a small amount. Let's make draining the ultimate player annoyance!