Formicids and Berserk(and Trog)

[Shard1697]

So not long ago Formicids were changed so that they can use Finesse, which was formerly blocked for being speed altering. (This was a good change). However, Fo still cannot berserk, which means they are locked out of using Trog's most valuable (earlygame)power. I think we can agree that, if the logic for the Oka change is "it's lame to lock Fo out of using this god's most powerful/iconic ability", it's pretty lame to not let Formicid berserkers berserk... which essentially just means "never play a Fo berserker".

This is trickier than allowing Finesse, because berserk is not just the speed increase, it's also the slow that comes afterwards. The way I see it, there are a few different ways this can happen.

• Let Fo berserk like anyone else, treating it as different from Haste.
• Let Fo berserk, but suppress the speed boost and slow, so it's just more damage and HP with exhaustion.
• Let Fo berserk, but suppress just the speed boost and not the slow, so it's just more damage and HP and still just as bad when it wears off.
• Let Fo berserk just like anyone else, but make berserk's speed boost and slow only affect attack speed, not move speed, following how Finesse can be allowed for only affecting attack speed.

I consider any of these preferable to the current state.

They are all "special cases", but Formicids as a species are one enormous "special case" anyways, since Stasis no longer exists as an amulet and you won't normally ever see it apart from them.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Two is the most consistent, but comes with an obvious balance issue. Trog's berserk becomes an infinite use might potion that multiplies your health by 1.5

[Shard1697]

How about they always pass out after berserking instead of just sometimes, in exchange for not being slowed, then?

[Shtopit]

They can be mighty. Personally, I'd let them berserk without the speed bonuses. I always saw slow as an effect of tiredness, so I'd leave it there: it's like being slowed by water, nothing magic about it. And I'd have Chei let formicids rage, since they wouldn't gain any speed bonus.

God powers allow to do pretty much anything, because they aren't exactly magic. So Chei can slow formicids and Ru can affect MR invulnerable monsters. In theory Trog could make formicids run, but a raging, running formicid with a large shield and a two-hander seems like too much to me.

[Lacuenta]

Because Trog is still good even if you can't berserk.

[Shard1697]

Yes, and Oka is still good even if you can't Finesse(albeit not as much), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to as Fo.

[duvessa]

Two is the most consistent, but comes with an obvious balance issue. Trog's berserk becomes an infinite use might potion that multiplies your health by 1.5

Pretty sure might+health*1.5+haste is better than might+health*1.5

[jwoodward48ss]

But then there's no downside to berserking, unless you're hoping to use a Ru power or Death's Door soon afterward.

[Shtopit]

But then there's no downside to berserking, unless you're hoping to use a Ru power or Death's Door soon afterward.

If the enemies you wanted to kill are still alive, now you are back at standard combat power and too slow to run away.

[jwoodward48ss]

I'm criticizing the balance of two and four.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Two is the most consistent, but comes with an obvious balance issue. Trog's berserk becomes an infinite use might potion that multiplies your health by 1.5

Pretty sure might+health*1.5+haste is better than might+health*1.5

The berserk affect would also not cause slow, making it essentially might and bonus health (and no nonrage actions) with a cool down.

I appreciate the snappy smartass overtones but it would be greatly appreciated if you attempted something actually constructive with your time by reading the thread before you post.

[duvessa]

I'm not joking. Berserk with haste and post-berserk slow is better than berserk with no haste and no post-berserk slow. You can reasonably claim that berserk in general is overpowered, but any Fo-specific worry is baseless.

[njvack]

But then there's no downside to berserking, unless you're hoping to use a Ru power or Death's Door soon afterward.

... or want to take some action other than move or melee while berserking.

[BabyRage]

Let FO berserk as usual, but only if it's invoked. Don't let them berserk through other means.

[PowerOfKaishin]

It's heavily debatable whether or not haste now is worth slow later, but neither option is strictly superior to the other.

Let FO berserk as usual, but only if it's invoked. Don't let them berserk through other means.

Just what we need: another reason to choose trog <_>

[BabyRage]

It's heavily debatable whether or not haste now is worth slow later, but neither option is strictly superior to the other.

Let FO berserk as usual, but only if it's invoked. Don't let them berserk through other means.

Just what we need: another reason to choose trog <_>

It's not like Fo is overpowered, quite opposite in fact. That would be a small buff.

[Chicken]

"Letting" Fo's berserk also means "making" Fo's berserk, when they get mothed or mutated or with certain items. And then they pass out, which for somebody who can't teleport and might be away from a wall is really bad.

[Shard1697]

a Good And Cool consequence, imo

[Malevolent]

I think we can agree that, if the logic for the Oka change is "it's lame to lock Fo out of using this god's most powerful/iconic ability", it's pretty lame to not let Formicid berserkers berserk... which essentially just means "never play a Fo berserker".

Just a note about the premise here: I think this is begging the question. Undead races already get locked out of Berserk as well. Is it also lame to not let them berserk? Is it really so bad if certain races can't use Trog's Berserk ability? There are quite a few races already that do not get full utility out of a certain god, or where it is actually a bad idea to pick a certain god even if we don't count opportunity cost (DD and most gods, Ghouls/Vampires/arguably Kobolds and Trolls and Gozag, Centaurs/Spriggans and Chei, probably more). I don't see anyone saying that's a problem. If the issue is that "FoBe is a possible starting combo despite Trog being a subpar choice for a Formicid", I consider that a rather irrelevant problem.

To me, it makes sense that Formicids can do Finesse, since Finesse doesn't sound like magic, but rather Oka imparting excellent (natural) weapon skills on you for a while. In that sense, Formicids could get Berserk too if we say that Berserk isn't magic, but we can just as easily say that Berserk is magic and thus Formicids can't be affected by it at all.

[Shard1697]

Just a note about the premise here: I think this is begging the question. Undead races already get locked out of Berserk as well. Is it also lame to not let them berserk? Is it really so bad if certain races can't use Trog's Berserk ability?

Yes and yes.

The only reason I did not mention this is because I forgot, since I don't typically play any undead.

[Sprucery]

but we can just as easily say that Berserk is magic

I dare you to say that to Trog's face.

[Shtopit]

I always assumed that berserker rage isn't magic but some sort of metabolic activity surge, and that undead are excluded because their metabolism either doesn't exist or works in a radically different way compared to the living. Yara doesn't delete rage, so I assume it isn't magic.

[VeryAngryFelid]

There are two consistent ways with gods:
1) Gods allow everything. Mu can drink potions with Gozag, Fo can blink with Lugonu.
2) Gods respect intrinsic abilities of species. Undead/Fo cannot berserk with Trog, Gh/Mu cannot be mutated by Jiyva/Xom, gods wrath cannot paralyze Fo.
Current crawl is not consistent, unspoiled player has no way to know in advance if given ability of a god works with specific species.
I really dislike "Mu can drink potions with Gozag, Fo can blink with Lugonu", those are broken/OP combos.

Here is a dilemma with berserking Fo.
If Fo is allowed to berserk while keeping immunity to paralysis, then we will have another broken combo. If Fo's immunity to paralysis is temporarily disabled for Trog's berserking, then we have a new thing to learn for spoilered players.

Another way to achieve consistency is to make gods allow everything (TSO can welcome undead and let them use holy weapon, for example), it can be fun but I hope devs will not go this way, it decreases difference between species.

[PleasingFungus]

I always assumed that berserker rage isn't magic but some sort of metabolic activity surge, and that undead are excluded because their metabolism either doesn't exist or works in a radically different way compared to the living. Yara doesn't delete rage, so I assume it isn't magic.

on the other hand, yara's does delete the Slow that you get after berserk ends. therefore, logically, we can conclude that: crawl is insane

[Siegurt]

I suggested this a long time ago, but perhaps it is relevant again:

I think all effects should be annotated with a category of effect like "physical" "mental" "magical" perhaps "divine" that is easily inspectable (i would color status lights differently for each effect)

I would also make there be consistency for removal, so "curing" might cure all "physical" effects and MR would resist all "magical" effects, and yara's would purge all those effects, and clarity would prevent all "mental" effects.

Further i would allow duplications of effects, so there might be a physical "paralysis" and a magical one, and a divine one.

I don't think having god powers be consistent across races means that all races need to be able to worship all gods, those are two separate issues imho.

[Reptisaurus]

I'm really not sure what's gained by making some combos unable to use some powers.

Everything should be able to berserk, transmute, etc....I don't even quite understand what the counter-argument is.

[and into]

Everything should be able to berserk, transmute, etc....I don't even quite understand what the counter-argument is.

If everything can berserk, transmute, etc. (not sure what is in this "etc." — teleport? quaff? regenerate HP by resting?), then a number of species would have to be removed or changed, because not being able to do those things is a part of what makes them distinctive.

Both for the sake of consistency and for the sake of having species restrictions actually be restrictions, it would be a good idea for potion petition not to work for mummies and bend space not to work for formicids.

[Croases]

If everything can berserk, transmute, etc. (not sure what is in this "etc." — teleport? quaff? regenerate HP by resting?), then a number of species would have to be removed or changed, because not being able to do those things is a part of what makes them distinctive.

I disagree. These restrictions only create diversity if they fundamentally limit the way that the affected species approach the game. If there are equivalent alternatives that you can use, then there is no true tradeoff and the "restrictions" lose their meaning (as you illustrate with Fo/bend space and Mu/potion petition, though even these are somewhat defensible since you miss out on other gods if you want these extra options).

Berserk is a powerful effect and its restriction is meaningful, but transmutations are not substantially better than other melee options and undead are prevented from access to forms mostly because of questionable flavor reasons, so Mu/Gh should definitely be able to transmute. Likewise, most god restrictions have little to no gameplay (or flavor) impact and it's outright silly that they're allowed to remain in the game.

Making undead unable to transmute is like making undead unable to use long blades, it does little in differentiating the species.

[and into]

If everything can berserk, transmute, etc. (not sure what is in this "etc." — teleport? quaff? regenerate HP by resting?), then a number of species would have to be removed or changed, because not being able to do those things is a part of what makes them distinctive.

I disagree. These restrictions only create diversity if they fundamentally limit the way that the affected species approach the game. If there are equivalent alternatives that you can use, then there is no true tradeoff and the "restrictions" lose their meaning (as you illustrate with Fo/bend space and Mu/potion petition, though even these are somewhat defensible since you miss out on other gods if you want these extra options).

Maybe I was not clear or our lines got crossed... It seems like you are agreeing with me? I am saying that species-based restrictions should not have a bunch of exceptions, as that tends to be bad for consistency, clarity, and making the restrictions meaningful.

Berserk is a powerful effect and its restriction is meaningful, but transmutations are not substantially better than other melee options and undead are prevented from access to forms mostly because of questionable flavor reasons, so Mu/Gh should definitely be able to transmute. Likewise, most god restrictions have little to no gameplay (or flavor) impact and it's outright silly that they're allowed to remain in the game.

Making undead unable to transmute is like making undead unable to use long blades, it does little in differentiating the species.

"No forms" is actually more meaningful than "no long blades" but I will concede that ghouls at least are in a very strange place, because they have claws and aptitudes that encourage UC, but cannot use forms, which is the only real reason to have UC in the game in the first place.

What it means to be "undead" is pretty inconsistent and confusing any way you slice it, but trying to sort that out probably deserves its own thread tbh.

[Croases]

Maybe I was not clear or our lines got crossed... It seems like you are agreeing with me? I am saying that species-based restrictions should not have a bunch of exceptions, as that tends to be bad for consistency, clarity, and making the restrictions meaningful.

I agree that species restrictions should be made consistent, but disagree in that you're lumping restrictions that make species distinct, like Fo's stasis, with restrictions that serve no real purpose, like undead being unable to change forms. The removal of the former would require species to be readjusted, the removal of the latter would not.

I'd even make a case for undead being able to use revivification/door, since it would at least make lich form less of an unwanted stepchild while encouraging undead to actually use necromancy.

[duvessa]

ghouls at least are in a very strange place, because they have claws and aptitudes that encourage UC, but cannot use forms, which is the only real reason to have UC in the game in the first place.

I'd argue exactly the opposite. Formless UC has more reason to exist than any other single weapon class, because compared to weapons it has the distinctions of being mostly independent of items, not having enchantment, and not having a brand. This is far more differentiation than the other weapon classes have from each other. If anything, forms make UC less distinct because they all make your unarmed attacks more like weapon attacks (the spellbooks you've found determine your "weapon's" quality, and almost all of them have brands).
And assuming UC with forms is stronger than UC without forms (which is a true assumption), a species that can't use forms should have a higher UC aptitude/claws, compared to its weapon aptitudes, than species that can use forms; that keeps UC from being underpowered compared to the other weapon classes.

[Shtopit]

Ghouls also have powered up UC without risking decapitating hydras. I think this sets them somewhat apart from trolls, and they have all armour slots, which would have limited use with transmutations. In practice, they allow a different style from both trolls (scarce armour, rage, slashing) and transmuters.

[JFunk]

Everything should be able to berserk, transmute, etc....I don't even quite understand what the counter-argument is.

In life, most of the time if you don't even understand the counter-argument, it doesn't mean that you are somehow super-right. It means only that -- you simply don't understand the other viewpoint, a condition that is highly correlated with being flat-out wrong. Quite simply, these different species options provide different experiences and a different set of choices on each play-through. It feels like a whole different twist on the same game. It provides additional dimensions of replayability and fun.

There is a general trend to argue for the removal of one or another feature, flavor, distinction, or play style because someone simply doesn't understand how someone else is enjoying the game. I get it, I can't stand Trog, and minotaurs are just behind humans for the title of most tedious, boring species, in my opinion. Just because I don't like them doesn't mean I think no one should be able to play them anymore, or that they should be drastically changed to fit the way I like to play. They're not for me. Yet there seems to be near universal agreement among the forums that a melee build is the ideal of gameplay experience that crawl has to offer. I mean, we even have predominant agreement that magic, in contrast, is somehow "tedious" or "boring" (what?) with players that prefer melee constantly hand-wringing about how magic needs to be changed to fit their tastes, somehow. Maybe that character type is just not for you. Maybe the players that enjoy that kind of play in general have more insight into how to make it better.

If you don't like species with flavor restrictions that you, personally, don't understand, enjoy, or appreciate, maybe those species weren't made for you. There is a whole list of species that can berserk and transmute. Go nuts. You can even pick human every single game, and no one will force you to do otherwise. Those species were made for other players, players like me. All my favorite species are flavor species, and I would be extremely disappointed if they were changed to be more similar in order to please players who aren't interested in these different gameplay styles in the first place. I'm not wrong to like what I like (It's still aimed at winning, and I still win with these species.), and neither are the players that prefer other combos. There are 20-odd species and 20-odd backgrounds to choose from. They don't all need to be made for me, specifically. Some of them can be made for other players. I don't need to hog the Legos I'm not even using.

[BabyRage]

Minotaur is like, the opposite of tedious.

[Shard1697]

If your idea of tedium is mainly "game taking longer", sure, but if you think making the game easier(via easy races/combos) makes it more tedious by removing difficult choices and thus making it more samey because you can just tab through everything, then no.

[JFunk]

And btw, reason ghouls can't berserk is due to the basic metaphors of life, death, and "undeath" that have surfaced in various mutations throughout cultures. Life is cyclical, contains growth, renewal, spurts, emotion, and passion, etc. Berserk, metaphorically, is the urge to survive. As living things, we are all bound by certain natural rhythms. Creatures like ghouls tap into basic angst about living in the form of a relentless creature free from the cycles of life and death (the food clock), free of all the rollercoaster of life's passion and malaise ("negative energy", which does not affect them, and which they can sometimes even use as a weapon against the living, and which social institutions -- like the Church, i.e. benevolent deities, promise to shield you from). Transmutation, metaphorically, is also tied to the transformative nature of life. Creatures like ghouls are trapped in a perpetual non-life, unable to experience transformation or passion, but neither sadness and despair.

That is why it makes no sense for a ghoul to berserk or transmute. It's fundamental to the entire experience of playing an undead. Generally speaking, the rhythm of "gather power, enter combat, cool down, and Vampires can swing back and forth between life and undeath which is also part of what makes them fun. Lich form is a maybe a little weird, but not necessarily because "crawl is insane," but because it's a computer game and not a portal into an internally consistent fantasy world, and it kind of makes sense as a temporary action by the living anyway.

Formicids for their part, being metaphorically associated with the earth, with a little metaphorical thinking about the idea of geological time, etc., it won't be hard to see the theme.

Whether this is fully intentional (crawl's magic metaphor is fundamentally great, and the design docs on it are worth a read) or "just" reflecting a tradition thousands of years older than DCSS or D&D before it, doesn't really matter. That's why it works, and why it's fundamentally "fun" -- because it touches basic human emotional triggers. Tinkering with it should be done with the aim of emphasizing this flavor in the experience of playing different species, not ironing out the differences because someone doesn't want to be disappointed when their ghoul finds a book of Transfigurations. Ultimately, "flavor" is more than just flavor. It can and should affect the entire rhythm and experience of playing the game.

[duvessa]

I think Reptisaurus was looking for gameplay or balance reasons to prevent undead/formicids from berserking. Not seven paragraphs of fanfiction and "reality and design goals are illusions, but my opinions are better than yours".